To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

[quote lameasahorse]@2TheLighthouse Sharia Courts in Britain are creating terrible situations for women and their findings are law in cases of child custody and divorce as they are legally arbitration counsels.
Britain's immigration policy and how it supports violent men abusing female partners and makes it harder for them to leave. There has been a lot of feminist work here and the situation has improved although there is more to do legally.
Campaigns against the hijab and the concept of modesty.
The specific ways black and brown women are discriminated against when accessing healthcare. There are differences to white women. Major issues for example with maternity care for black women which leads to four times higher maternal death than white women.

Just a few for starters. There are lots of issues.[/quote]
Thank you. I care about those things and see them as feminist issues. I would be shocked if any feminist didn’t.

But I appreciate what you are saying.

I don't call myself a feminist. I do care about women and children's rights. But feminism fucked me over big time. The idea that women can 'have it all' - no we can't. The idea that having casual sex is empowering - no it isn't. The idea that men hate us - no they don't (most of them don't). I was brought up with feminism and it twisted me away from my own wants and needs and created a very unrealistic, damaging and paranoid world view.

I do think women's rights are under threat and agree that there are still many problems women face. Pornography and abuse are huge issues. The trans thing seems fundamental to me, because if we can't say what a woman is, then we can't say women need any rights at all.

I agree with OP. I could post more but one thing I've personally found destructive to my self worth growing destructive to some of my personal relationships is the endless messages growing up about the need to be pretty and be picked by a man. And the levels of abuse women put up with to have society see they have been chosen by a man. I hope my daughters don't submit to that narrative.

YANBU @2TheLighthouse

I think many women have this moment of incandescent rage when they start to see the world for what it is. When they see the structural oppression & inequalities - not just the petty everyday sexism, but the way the whole system of our society conspires to keep women & girls in a permanent state of catching up. It's dangerous knowledge - you see the world differently afterwards.

The next question is, how do you deal with it? And how do you incorporate this "dangerous knowledge" into your everyday life?

I think a lot of women are starting to realise the way the world is structured in the wake of the attempts of powerful men to redefine what a woman is - a definition which allows men to dominate women all over again. And in the wake of other powerful men (eg Keir Starmer) not being sure what defines a woman, and other powerful people talking about "female penises" and other rubbish. And then specifics, such as the sight of the obvious biological male body competing in women's swimming, or the news that a 'female' prison inmate raped fellow prison inmates and pregnancies ensued.

Nope. Because trans people are a tiny tiny number, their inclusion in stats in accordance with gender identity will not be enough to significantly shape stats on pay and progression etc.

While women are half the population, the number of women in positions of power and influence or top-earnings (etc) are so few in number that, actually, having a group of males (apparently 1-3% of males) included in that large "women" group skews the data quite significantly.

@beastlyslumber

I don't call myself a feminist. I do care about women and children's rights. But feminism fucked me over big time. The idea that women can 'have it all' - no we can't. The idea that having casual sex is empowering - no it isn't. The idea that men hate us - no they don't (most of them don't). I was brought up with feminism and it twisted me away from my own wants and needs and created a very unrealistic, damaging and paranoid world view.

I do think women's rights are under threat and agree that there are still many problems women face. Pornography and abuse are huge issues. The trans thing seems fundamental to me, because if we can't say what a woman is, then we can't say women need any rights at all.

I’m sorry to hear about your experiences. With respect, some of these experiences don’t seem the fault of ‘feminism’. Feminism is the word for advancing women’s rights and interests; it is feminism (radical feminism) that is fighting the encroachment on women’s spaces that you mention.

The ‘having it all’ mantra was a line coined by people taking the piss out of feminism. It was a way of sort of rolling your eyes at women who, shock horror, wanted a family AND a career. Men have always had both. But women wanting both were painted as madly grabby having it all’ types.

As for casual sex… I guess Women’s Lib did petition for the same sexual freedom as men. And the pill allowed women more sexual freedom. I dare say some women did ind that empowering.

Rejecting the word feminism seems counterproductive.

[quote lameasahorse]@AlisonDonut in fairness anyone not agreeing with MN feminism gets chased off the feminism board. There is no point.[/quote]
Not being able to answer questions about their beliefs = chased off the board now does it?

Aye.

I don’t think it is feminism to claim that women “can have it all”. Feminism is to push for men do half of the housework/ childcare so both parents have the same opportunities to work if they chose.

I don’t think it is feminism to encourage girls/women to sleep with lots of men. Feminism is to equally fiercely fight for their right to sleep with men if they chose and to reject any man they chose.

2TheLighthouse I agree that our rights as women and girls that we have won are being eroded. The more we push back the more aggressive the push back is. Young women may not suffer the sexual harassment in work like I did but the aggressive harassment on the street is awful. Just I don’t feel the trans debate needs to be discussed all the time or is central to my concerns.

It does seem as if one of the biggest issues is division within feminism. When you’re the oppressed group (women) it is easy to succumb to these divisions, I guess.

I appreciate different viewpoints- and I do think it’s vital to try as best as we can to overcome the differences and divisions in pursuit of the same goals (safety and equal opportunities for women).

I take on the chin @lameasahorse ‘s points about white feminism. She pointed out things that are obviously true.

But I don’t see how we can ever overcome the division caused by those who think men can be women and those who know they can’t. It does undermine the whole cause. So perhaps my despondency is very well-founded.

@WhenSheWasBad

Totally agree with you Op.

Also agree with NashvilleQueen It would be really good for this thread not to become solely about trans issues because there's so many other threads out there

And they all get moved into one single, segregated fora, because that is what was demanded. No matter where such threads are posted you can report them and get them moved and the hide the whole fora.

There is a second feminist fora, specifically not for sex or gender discussion. You could use that for any and all women's issues that don't include gender ideology.

Just don't dismiss or misinterpret what many other women see as a real and all invasive threat to women's rights. It is perfectly possible to disagree with without denigrating women who have different views.

[quote Fiftythreepercent]@AlisonDonut I did post on that thread

I support women’s progression in my organisation. I’d love to discuss and achieve more outside of work but not convinced MN is the home for this[/quote]
So you bumped the thread that you are complaining was bumped into the top 25?

It’s also concerning so many women do not feel empowered by feminism or feel that feminism that is mostly represented doesn’t represent them.

I’m not just meaning MN feminism but feminism on the radio, tv, newspaper’s

@HRTQueen

It’s also concerning so many women do not feel empowered by feminism or feel that feminism that is mostly represented doesn’t represent them.

I’m not just meaning MN feminism but feminism on the radio, tv, newspaper’s

MN feminism is the one place where you can shape what is said.

It is literally the sum of its parts, minus wrong speak.

So many of you moaning that feminism is being done wrong. Yet you refuse to take part. What you want is for other people to hand you feminism on a plate and for it to be done just the way you want it.

Yay Alison has arrived to put us all right

No we are making the point that many feminists do not listen to all women if it doesn’t fit their narrative

As you have proven again and again

@HRTQueen

Yay Alison has arrived to put us all right

No we are making the point that many feminists do not listen to all women if it doesn’t fit their narrative

As you have proven again and again

'Some women don't listen to other women'

'Oh have you told them what you thought'

'No, I have blocked feminism and refuse to participate'.

Top work.

Sorry, OP, you are wrong.

Feminism isn't the problem. The problem is P A T R I A R C H Y.

I thought you were going to talk about the in-fighting in and between feminist movements today. That's a bit frustrating.

@StopStartStop

Sorry, OP, you are wrong.

Feminism isn't the problem. The problem is P A T R I A R C H Y.

I thought you were going to talk about the in-fighting in and between feminist movements today. That's a bit frustrating.

I totally agree that the patriarchy is the problem. I think that’s the root of all the problems I listed.

I didn’t say feminism was the problem ; I said I was despondent because lots of women reject feminism or say they don’t see the need for it. The need for it is to fight the patriarchal system that generates so many problems for women.

I don’t see where we disagree or what you find frustrating. Can you elaborate?

I agree all that has been said about porn/kink and I would say that the ”sex positive” movement has been so harmful.

Also trans business and how can we protect women, if we don’t know what woman is.

And also I’d add that most feminist places I’ve seen are centered around straight people/being a mother, and I just don’t like how they put women who are in a relationship/married and mothers on a pedastal.

Keep on Alison

Gumdrops. Alison seems very cross that black women won't do what she thinks we should.
If only Alison and pals could try to listen, instead of using words like " moaning" to shout our contributions down.

I too have been feeling exactly like this lately - to the point I have been searching for a local feminist group I could perhaps join to learn more about what I can do to feel more proactive. However the only ones I can find are university based and its been a long time since I was a student!

@lameasahorse

I do not believe men can be women. I support the fight for single-sex refuges for example. But I don't think it is such an important issue that every other issue should be ignored. I also do not think that it is okay to work with anyone who says they know what a woman is however racist or misogynistic they are.

But I don’t think it is such an important issue that every other issue should be ignored.

I think it is hugely important. But I don’t quite know what you mean about ignoring all other issues. I’m 100% crystal clear where I stand on self ID and will tell people if asked. But I still go about my life worrying about/addressing/dealing with other issues of varying degrees of urgency. If someone started a thread or a petition about the sharia courts you mentioned, I would engage with that and give it my time and energy too. We don’t exclude all other issues by having a strong opinion about something.