To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave

Your post is essentially a very traditional view of womens sexuality that anything unusual or outside the box must be for the pleasure of men.

How on earth did you get that from HRTQueen's post?

By her complaining that the concept of kink shaming has developed on a thread about womens rights - as if avoiding kink shaming is something that only men might benefit from.

And I never said I don’t think women don’t have kinks. I feel many younger women feel pressured to do things that have been normalised by porn

@ExMachinaDeus

How you look actually is important. Most women do want to be mothers and are more nurturing than men. It probably is a good idea for infants to be cared for by their mums. Children brought up without mothers are disadvantaged in life. Men and women are different biologically and psychologically

Fair dos @beastlyslumber everything you say is valid (and to me mostly reads as a version of feminism) . But historically (and within my living memory) the things such as women being more caring than men etc etc that you cite were used as reasons why a lot of the other things that you say shouldn't happen DO happen, and continue to happen:
men should be paid more than women
men should have more education than women
men should have men-only occupations, golf clubs etc
men have "needs" and women & girls must be sexually available (pornography, rape in marriage)

And so on.

I think nowadays that it's easy to forget that only 40 years ago, it was "accepted" that because women wanted babies and were "naturally" more caring, this was used to argue that they should be paid less than men, and should have to resign on marriage, shouldn't get maternity leave, and should stay with [abusive] husbands "for the sake of the children."

And so on.

Those views have also in the past been used to argue against gay peoples rights - eg if women are ‘more nurturing’ then gay men should not be permitted to adopt etc.

@beastlyslumber

Apologies for annoying you. I’m sorry I was patronising. It was just that you set out a feminist position and then set you weren’t a feminist, which was for me a bit like someone saying they don’t eat any animal products but then baulking at being called a vegan.

However, you’ve clarified a few things here:

But I don't buy into all the bullshit talking points. We don't live in a patriarchy. How you look actually is important. Most women do want to be mothers and are more nurturing than men. It probably is a good idea for infants to be cared for by their mums. Children brought up without mothers are disadvantaged in life. Men and women are different biologically and psychologically. Most women don't actually want to fight in wars or put out fires. There isn't a gender pay gap in the UK. Most men like and care about women.

Some of this is textbook feminism again - most feminists I know agree that an infant needs its mother and, for example, engineering situations for that not to be case (eg surrogacy) is viewed as hugely problematic.

Feminists are the first people to announce that men and women are different physically!! Why do you think otherwise?

But I’m afraid you’re wrong to say we don’t live in a patriarchy. We very much do. Until just over 100 years ago, as you know, women couldn’t even vote in this country. There was no secret whatsoever made of the fact that women were lesser and secondary to men. Do you really think that state of affairs has been totally undone in such a short time? We still live in a world built by men for men. Yes, we’ve had many changes made in our favour, but there’s a long, long was to go.

There is a gender pay gap.

As for how you look mattering- that’s not an unfeminist position at all. Feminists don’t all go round looking unkempt and dressed in sackcloth. The issue is the great gaping void between expectations for men and women.

As for men liking and caring about women… who knows? We can only judge on words and behaviour, and there’s a pretty frightening body of evidence on our beloved web to suggest that there are an awful lot of men who hate women a lot and wish them all sorts of harm.

@HRTQueen

And I never said I don’t think women don’t have kinks. I feel many younger women feel pressured to do things that have been normalised by porn

So if women have kinks, do you agree that they should not be shamed for them?

When you are shown 14 year old girls who are 'liking' a teenaged boy's social media posts where that boy has their hands up in a choke position, you begin to realise just how far this has gone.

It is of great concern just how much teenaged girls are being pressured into unwanted sexual practices, including young lesbians.

I agree. 30 years ago I assumed we were moving in a direction to true equality for women, but I know see that things are so much worse than I ever thought, and unconscious misogyny permeates our culture. I genuinely think things are getting worse, not better. The only rights women are granted are when they are easy to do and don’t put anyone else’s’ (male) noses out of joint.

I think nowadays that it's easy to forget that only 40 years ago, it was "accepted" that because women wanted babies and were "naturally" more caring, this was used to argue that they should be paid less than men, and should have to resign on marriage, shouldn't get maternity leave, and should stay with [abusive] husbands "for the sake of the children."

That's true, but I don't see why the fact that something can be used against us should mean that we deny it or pretend it isn't true.

@Helleofabore

That’s not how stats work, I’m afraid.

It can indeed skew the statistics in an analysis on an organisation by organisation basis. A smaller organisation when analysed to report the progress. Or an analysis on new recruitment, or on a pay bracket by pay bracket basis.

Nope. Even in small organisations the number of trans people likely to be included is going to be minuscule.

Let’s take another example. Let’s say you have a company with 100 people assigned male at birth - 99 cis men, and 1 trans woman - and 100 people assigned female at birth - 99 cis women and 1 trans man.

Let’s say all the AFAB people earn less than the AMAB people. Let’s say AFAB people earn an average of £30,000 and the AMAB earn an average of £40,000.

Let’s say we recut those stats to include the trans woman with the other women, and the trans man with the other men. The average pay for men would go from £40,000 to £39,900 and the average pay for women would go from £30,000 to £30,100.

Men would go from being paid 33.3% more to being paid 32.5% more. That’s not a significant statistical difference if you’re trying to make the case to reduce the pay gap between men and women.

@2TheLighthouse

YANBU

I’m a recent FTM mum. During my pregnancy I came to the conclusion that I was relieved to have a boy as I genuinely think there would be so much I would find upsetting about bringing up a girl in terms of what she would have to contend with in the world. I can’t imagine how challenging it must be helping your daughter navigate those waters as she grows.

I have no concerns if a woman or a man feels I’m insulting then by saying that I feel acting out a dangerous act during sex isn’t normal which cutting off oxygen to the brain is

YANBU. Add discrimination and victim blaming against single mothers. Nothing of sort for deadbeat fathers.

I despise the idea that everyone’s ‘kinks’ should be celebrated, and that ‘kink shaming’ is a faux pas. If you like choking women, be ashamed.

We don’t celebrate other base instincts. Some people like violence. We tell them it’s not ok.

But somehow, if your damaging tendency is motivated by sexual desire, it’s suddenly ok.

I get that from the 1960s onwards, sexual liberation was new, cool, progressive etc, and prudery was old-school, fogey and Victorian - but come in. It’s past a joke now. We’ve got enough sexual freedom here in the UK, and, yes, it will be the middle-aged women (guilty as charged) who have to call it out. Because it threatens us and our children. Call me Mary Whitehouse if you like.

It was just that you set out a feminist position and then set you weren’t a feminist, which was for me a bit like someone saying they don’t eat any animal products but then baulking at being called a vegan.

I'm not a feminist. Stop calling me a feminist! I don't accept your labels. You can't just claim me for your ideology.

I'm not going to get into a big back and forth with you, OP, because what's the point. But just one thing: no, we don't live in a patriarchy. 100 years ago, yes, you'd have a point. Some countries, yes, are patriarchies. The UK, in 2022? No, no way. Look up the definition of a patriarchy. We don't live in one. We are free and equal under the law, and I don't need a man's permission for literally ANYTHING I do, ever. It's even against the law to pay a woman less than a man for doing the same job.

I actually think it's pretty insulting to those women who fought for our rights to act as though we are still living under the same conditions they were. We should be celebrating our freedom. If you've ever lived in a patriarchal country (I have) you will know the difference.

*come on, not come in!!

@TeaKlaxon

What about when it’s the significantly higher earning roles you’re talking about?

Don’t ask me to do the maths, but I’m pretty sure that at my organisation it only takes the CEO and one of the other top 4 earners to be female for the gender pay gap picture to be significantly more positive, even if there’s been little change generally across other roles.

On the gender pay gap, I think it does exist, mainly driven by maternity leave and child care. This is a feminist issue to me. There should be accommodations for maternity leave and possibilities for mothers to access childcare. This is prohibitively expensive in the U.K.

As for trans, why is this a trans thread? On that topic, I would say that I don’t think that rape counsellors should have penises and tell raped women that unless they are happy to talk about their rape with or in front of other people with penises, they are bigots. I believe that is the the case in Scotland? One person with a penis in a support group for rape can have quite large ramifications for the people who were raped - by a penis. Statistics or not.

I’m furious too much of the time as well, OP. I also feel that the trans agenda is inseparable from all the other problems, which all result from the huge undercurrent of sexism that continues to dominate so many things. It’s underlying sexism that causes so many to support and prioritize male “women” and their demands over the needs of women.

Why are more women actively tackling the trans issue than, for example, the pay gap? The pay gap is deeply frustrating, but desperately difficult to tackle. We have laws that ought to cover it, but they’re nearly impossible to enforce on a countrywide scale and in particular as it’s hard to compare for many reasons, including different levels of competence and experience, differences in jobs applied for, and even the fact that discussing wages is frowned upon in the UK.

Beyond that, the pay gap occurs for many reasons, including partly because of the choices families with children make, such as who stops or cuts down work after children. Sometimes those choices are driven by earning potential, but quite often we are influenced by something less concrete, though whether it’s more down to nature that mothers are often the more involved parent, or whether it’s copying patterns our parents demonstrated is impossible to quantify. Making laws was the easier part of the equation. Sorting out why the problem persists, despite the laws, is very complex. Also, imperfect as it is, the situation is probably relatively stable, albeit worsened by outside influences such as Brexit and Covid.

The threat to women’s rights presented by the demands made by the trans lobby are much easier to fight right now. Laws have been proposed and pushed that many of us see as detrimental and that’s why we’re fighting to prevent those changes. It’s visible and there are obvious ways to try to combat it.

I have a feeling that if the laws on equal pay were being eroded or removed, the same women who are currently fighting against the erosion of single sex spaces would be the first to jump in and object.

I feel like we’ve stopped making progress and now we’re so busy firefighting that achieving anything outside of that will be very difficult. I do think the erosion of women’s rights presented by the demands of the trans lobby have pulled in a lot of women who haven’t been actively involved in feminism before, so it’s not all negative.

I do also think that most men are nice is missing the point. Almost all of us have sexist thought processes and assumptions because they’re so inherent in our society that we can’t even see them until someone points them out.

Yes Teaklaxon, I have seen your examples before and I do continue to disagree. You like to cut out the outliers in your stats examples and you define 'small' the way you wish.

You also count on there only being '1' or '2' people who are identifying as trans in those organisations.

Shall we also then look at what happens to supposedly 'gender' balanced boards? Shall we look at the example of the particular board that was reported as being 'gender' balanced where out of 8 of the board members, 75% were male?

This has happened by the way. It is not a made up scenario.

As OP and others have requested, let's not make this discussion about 'trans' issues. I was merely pointing out that your blanket statement did ignore some relevant points.

@HRTQueen

I have no concerns if a woman or a man feels I’m insulting then by saying that I feel acting out a dangerous act during sex isn’t normal which cutting off oxygen to the brain is

Your complaint was about the concept of kink shaming generally.

To be clear then you’re fine with the idea of women being shamed for their kinks?

@beastlyslumber

It was just that you set out a feminist position and then set you weren’t a feminist, which was for me a bit like someone saying they don’t eat any animal products but then baulking at being called a vegan.

I'm not a feminist. Stop calling me a feminist! I don't accept your labels. You can't just claim me for your ideology.

I'm not going to get into a big back and forth with you, OP, because what's the point. But just one thing: no, we don't live in a patriarchy. 100 years ago, yes, you'd have a point. Some countries, yes, are patriarchies. The UK, in 2022? No, no way. Look up the definition of a patriarchy. We don't live in one. We are free and equal under the law, and I don't need a man's permission for literally ANYTHING I do, ever. It's even against the law to pay a woman less than a man for doing the same job.

I actually think it's pretty insulting to those women who fought for our rights to act as though we are still living under the same conditions they were. We should be celebrating our freedom. If you've ever lived in a patriarchal country (I have) you will know the difference.

In law, we’re not a patriarchy, I grant you. I was talking about in spirit - in the sense that everything was designed for men, and women are ‘other’. It’s ridiculous to suggest we’ve shaken that off in a mere century.

To make a blunt comparison, racism is not written into law (and indeed is explicitly forbidden in law where it can be legislated against) but we still live in a racist society. There are no laws saying women are lesser, but misogyny still rules.

@Helleofabore

Yes Teaklaxon, I have seen your examples before and I do continue to disagree. You like to cut out the outliers in your stats examples and you define 'small' the way you wish.

You also count on there only being '1' or '2' people who are identifying as trans in those organisations.

Shall we also then look at what happens to supposedly 'gender' balanced boards? Shall we look at the example of the particular board that was reported as being 'gender' balanced where out of 8 of the board members, 75% were male?

This has happened by the way. It is not a made up scenario.

As OP and others have requested, let's not make this discussion about 'trans' issues. I was merely pointing out that your blanket statement did ignore some relevant points.

Unless you think trans people have some privileged access to positions of power that cisgender people of either sex don’t have, those outliers are so rare as to be meaningless.

That of course is the problem with responding to a discussion about statistics with anecdotes.

I mentioned that particular kink

No others.

But let’s ignore the real issue and that is that it’s very dangerous and more and more women are speaking out about men trying this out on them and that it has actually been used a a defence for murder

We do live in a patriarchy.

Our society favours men and their wants.

What do you mean by infants are better cared for by their mothers?

The reason people are not supporting feminism is because the self declared feminists, especially on this site, keep ruining the reputation! I wouldn't call myself a feminist or seek out feminist spaces based on exposure to MN feminism.