To end a friendship due to his use of sex workers?

[Cornishjam1162]

It has recently come to light that a friend of 15 years is a regular customer of sex workers. We have always wondered why he never wanted to date again after getting a divorce and now it makes sense. I would have never had him down as the type and I'm shocked to say the least. I don't know the circumstances behind why the women do that line of work but there's always the risk that they're not doing it out of their own free will isn't there? I feel like he could well be exploiting vulnerable women.

Would you end a friendship over this? Am I being too judgemental?

KettrickenSmiled · 15/05/2022 16:16

"Citation please
Or an apology for inventing that specious 'fact' - either will do."

I'd start with the fact that there was a massive operation under the last Labour government involving a huge number of police around the country to find the trafficked women and couldn't find any.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

Trafficking is a deliberately misleading term to use. It can mean merely moving people voluntarily from one place to another. It's used by feminists in the rescue industry to push their abolitionist agenda. Most statistics used by rescue industry feminists are deliberately skewed and often use street prostitutes, a fairly small minority of sex workers to represent all of them. Others are simply made up or massively inflated. Julie Bindel, for instance, is notorious for her dodgy statistics.

ha ha nice try pompous dude - do your own homework.
With a little effort, you might even overcome your own confirmation biases.

@misssatan What an interesting turn of phrase to deploy - "rescue industry feminists".

Your focus on who is trafficking misleading.
A women doesn't have to have been trafficked to be coerced.

I wonder why you are obfuscating by throwing out links to defunct studies about trafficking, as if trafficking & coercion are mutually exclusive.
Are you trying to kid yourself that if a Labour government couldn't find much evidence of trafficking, that all UK prostitutes must therefore be Happy Hookers?

KettrickenSmiled · 16/05/2022 11:42

"What an interesting turn of phrase to deploy - "rescue industry feminists"."

If you say so. It's fairly common among critics of your kind of feminism.

"Your focus on who is trafficking misleading. A women doesn't have to have been trafficked to be coerced."

Agreed, but trafficking is a word which is commonly used to mean coercion.

"I wonder why you are obfuscating by throwing out links to defunct studies about trafficking, as if trafficking & coercion are mutually exclusive."

These are not defunct studies and I don't say trafficking and coercion are exclusive.

"Are you trying to kid yourself that if a Labour government couldn't find much evidence of trafficking, that all UK prostitutes must therefore be Happy Hookers?"

This was a country wide operation by the police, not the Labour government. They couldn't find coerced or trafficked women in the sex industry. It doesn't mean there are none, just that they aren't easy to find and don't constitute a majority of sex workers, contrary to what some feminists claim.

This was a country wide operation by the police, not the Labour government.
It was a politically motivated farce which the police did not believe in - no wonder little evidence was found.

Again - the focus was on trafficking, which does not exclude coercion.
Given that it's estimated that approx 105,000 are prostitutes in the UK, & that over 70% of them experience some form of PTSD, it's hardly a big stretch to understand that most prostitutes would prefer not to be on the game.

That's funny, the BBC and Channel 4 were able to find loads:

www.channel4.com/programmes/taken-hunting-the-sex-traffickers
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0013x9q/sold-sex-slaves-next-door

When I was in brothels and agencies the police were some of the biggest customers. They were the worst for violence and abuse. I've still got scars where a man who was CID used to put cigarettes out on me.
So I don't believe anything the police have got to say about prostitution.

When my pimp beat me in the head with an iron bar, because I had tried to run away, the police believed him when he told them I had attacked him. They also told me it's not illegal for a man to prostitute his girlfriend if she consents- and I had been made to tell everyone I consented, hadn't I.

The police know where the coerced women are, they've fucked enough of them.

Well said @Vampirethriller

The sex industry apologists & promoters of of "sexual empowerment" just love to breezily deny that prostitution is a problem for prostitutes. One has to wonder what those PP are getting out of it. Maybe they have skin in the game.

Its the issue of whether coercion or imbalance of power vitiates consent, and I'm really uncomfortable with men who use uninformed consent (as its becoming called) in order to get sex.

So I would exclude someone who was married and lied about it to get women to have sex, but what about men who go to much poorer countries to get sex or get wives? Its not always prostitution but these women often have so few choices in their lives that marriage to a much older fairly unattractive white guy is the best way towards a better lifestyle for them and their family.

I've got a former friend who did this recently and I can't reconcile with it. He seems to treat his new wife as an unpaid cook/housekeeper, speaks to her in a strange way and sort of mocks her and says things like "she won't understand anyway" and doesn't even have her on his social media as his wife. I've tried to speak to her but she's very withdrawn and doesn't respond to invites.

The sex industry apologists & promoters of of "sexual empowerment" just love to breezily deny that prostitution is a problem for prostitutes.

If your statement is true then their denials are clearly wrong and I agree with you. But as an earlier poster pointed out, there are quite a lot of false claims being made in this thread without any evidence and I rather think your statement is one of them. I reckon that "sex industry apologists & promoters" deny that prostitution is a problem for all prostitutes.

@BelperLawnmower the only evidence a reasonable person needs to consider is that 9 out of 10 prostitutes would prefer to not be working in the sex industry.

Any sophistry in attempting to deflect from that fact is just noise.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/prostitution-we-need-to-see-paying-for-sex-as-violence-rather-than-vice-8957485.html
Yet the mythology surrounding prostitution is strong. The so-called ‘oldest profession in the world’ is viewed with a salt-of-the-earth fondness. When a celebrity is found to have used a prostitute it is treated no worse by the media than an extra-marital affair. And the articulate 11 per cent of women in the sex trade who say they are there voluntarily receive a great deal more airtime than the 89 per cent who do not (just look at the Belle de Jour). We appear to like the idea of the ‘happy hooker’.

@Cornishjam1162 this was always gonna be a contentious thread, but has it helped you?

Thanks @KettrickenSmiled but it's behind a paywall unfortunately.

But anyway, it's evidence for what?

Even accepting that statistic as meaning that 90% of prostitutes are coerced (which is not at all the same thing as preferring not to be a prostitute) it is clearly possible for a client to find a prostitute who is happy to enter into a consensual transaction. Your figures could be evidence that nice men do need to be diligent.

@BelperLawnmower - bizarre! - I checked & it's paywalled for me now, but wasn't the first time ...
So revisited, & hit the 'refresh' button, & the paywall disappeared again.

it is clearly possible for a client to find a prostitute who is happy to enter into a consensual transaction.
I haven't claimed otherwise.
Can't see how that gives any comfort to the coerced women though.

Your figures could be evidence that nice men do need to be diligent.
That kinds pre-supposes a stance from which paying for sex is seen as something its possible to do while being a "nice guy".
Also - please see @Vampirethriller's post at 13:18.
Coerced prostitutes aren't about to tell their 'diligent' Nice Guy punters that they are being coerced.

@KettrickenSmiled is right, I had plenty of nice men visit me. Nice polite men whose wives just didn't understand them, so they came to me in their lunch hour/when they were picking up the click and collect/whatever excuse it was.
They thought they were seeing me because I wanted to be there and I liked them. There was always a man waiting outside the house or in the other room, a pimp or brothel owner who read my reviews to check I was being a good girlfriend experience. Brothel owners had friends of theirs pose as clients to check we weren't telling anyone what was really going on- I was told that early on, so I didn't know who could be trusted and who was in on it.

All these places were legal businesses, tax paying and known to the police.

KettrickenSmiled · 16/05/2022 12:54

"This was a country wide operation by the police, not the Labour government."

Yes, it was a police operation instigated by the Labour government.

"It was a politically motivated farce which the police did not believe in - no wonder little evidence was found."

The motivation was to find evidence of coercion/trafficking and they found none, or almost none. If the evidence of forced prostitution was as easy to find as rescue industry feminists claim it is the police would have easily found it. Plus, I know of no evidence to show that the police had no faith in the operation.

"Given that it's estimated that approx 105,000 are prostitutes in the UK, & that over 70% of them experience some form of PTSD, it's hardly a big stretch to understand that most prostitutes would prefer not to be on the game."

A highly dubious figure.

Keep digging that entrenched position @misssatan - I'm sure you know more about the corruption & violence that fuels the sex industry than @Vampirethriller, or org's like Streetlight do.

Why you are taking such pain to naysay the stats is beyond me. Maybe you need to justify your own use of sex workers, so don't enjoy hearing the stark facts.

Gosh this is such a British attitude. Why dies it affect you what he does in his personal time.

It literally has nothing to do with you , he clearly wants no ties sex. Fine

It's like paying a cleaner yes you have some exploitation (In many service industries), but most run their businesses how they want to and it suits them

I mean, you could make the same argument about being friends with a paedophile, a rapist, a domestic abuser, someone who is cruel to animals, a racist, a homophobe etc etc

Personally I don't want to be friends with someone who uses prostitutes as it shows a worrying attitude to women and sex that I couldn't agree with

Gosh this is such an ignorant attitude @maddy68

Why not educate yourself before dismissing the experiences of tens of thousands of women in the UK alone, & have a look at some facts - www.streetlight.uk.com/ - or read Sarah Forsythe's book - www.amazon.co.uk/Slave-Girl-Sarah-Forsyth/dp/1844546853

If that's too taxing for you, just read Vampire's post above at 13:18, then come back & defend your outrageously callous attitude.

Most sex workers do NOT "run the business they want & it suits them." Most are preyed upon by pimps.
www.girlsaskguys.com/sexual-health/q776172-why-do-prostitutes-have-pimps
cease.org.uk/facts/prostitution-2/not-so-happy-hookers-the-reality-of-prostitution/

KettrickenSmiled · 16/05/2022 16:45

"Keep digging that entrenched position @misssatan - I'm sure you know more about the corruption & violence that fuels the sex industry than @Vampirethriller, or org's like Streetlight do."

Mine is a more entrenched position than yours?

Vampirethriller could be anyone. I don't take much notice of people who make anonymous claims on sites.

"Why you are taking such pain to naysay the stats is beyond me."

Because stats used by feminists, especially rescue industry feminists, are notoriously bad and inaccurate as they are used to push a particular agenda.

"Maybe you need to justify your own use of sex workers, so don't enjoy hearing the stark facts."

I'm a gay woman and have never paid for sex or even entered a strip club although I do occasionally watch porn.

It's telling that you immediately think anyone who disagrees with you is both a man. The 'facts' you speak of don't bear careful investigation. I prefer to look at less biased research and listen to the voices of actual sex workers rather than feminists who claim to speak for them but actually speak over them.

As a matter of interest what do you think the best approach to the sex industry is? Are you advocating for prohibition? Do you think the so called Swedish model is the way forward? That has (inevitably) proved to be a disaster for the women involved.

AdamRyan · 16/05/2022 17:17

"I mean, you could make the same argument about being friends with a paedophile, a rapist, a domestic abuser, someone who is cruel to animals, a racist, a homophobe etc etc

Personally I don't want to be friends with someone who uses prostitutes as it shows a worrying attitude to women and sex that I couldn't agree with"

Does that extend to your porn watching Adam? After all those women (and men) you masturbate to are being paid for sex. Doesn't that strongly imply you have a worrying attitude to women and sex?

And do you pay for your porn, or do you prefer to rip off the performers and get your kicks for free?

Those that actually care about women don't watch porn either, misssatan.

Oh, I didn't think you were a man @misssatan

Just someone who was going to out her own ridiculousness eventually:
*Because stats used by feminists, especially rescue industry feminists, are notoriously bad and inaccurate"
😂😂😂😂😂

KettrickenSmiled · 17/05/2022 10:52

"Oh, I didn't think you were a man"

Then why did you assume that I used sex workers, by which you obviously meant prostitutes?

Given that the vast majority of people who pay for sex are men you clearly thought I was a man and was simply arguing to justify my use of prostitutes and sought to shame me as a result. Be honest about that. It was an ad hominem attack.

The problem is that arguments don't gain strength from who is making them. They stand or fall based on evidence and logic, regardless of who is presenting them.

"Just someone who was going to out her own ridiculousness eventually"

My 'ridiculousness' amounts to nothing more than questioning advocacy research from extremely biased feminists?