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AIBU?

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Original poster

I agree with Boris

999 replies

ivykaty44 · 06/04/2022 17:04

trib.al/ov5g0nj I can’t stand the throes but agree with this

OP posts:
MrsWombat · 08/04/2022 09:13

JK Rowling says pretty much the same thing and gets attacked.....

DrSbaitso · 08/04/2022 09:17

From what I understand, the conversion therapy ban has been misreporting and misunderstood. It's not about trying to convince people not to be trans. It's about trying to go through other avenues first to check that they truly are trans and not just gay/gender non-conforming, before going down a medicalised and possibly irreversible pathway of transition. Research does show that most young people who think they are trans eventually find they are gay/gender non-conforming.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 08/04/2022 09:20

JK Rowling says pretty much the same thing and gets attacked....
She has a lot of support on MN.
She was brave speaking out.

DrSbaitso · 08/04/2022 09:20

"Single sex spaces in prisons, in refuges and in sport, which is obviously an issue of topical debate at the moment."

That's barely a sentence. It's not taking a stand either way. What exactly is Reeves saying?

If Labour can clearly state sense on this issue, they can have my vote back. It's not going to the Tories but it's sure as fuck not going anywhere that doesn't understand why we need single sex spaces.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2022 09:24

From what I understand, the conversion therapy ban has been misreporting and misunderstood. It's not about trying to convince people not to be trans. It's about trying to go through other avenues first to check that they truly are trans and not just gay/gender non-conforming, before going down a medicalised and possibly irreversible pathway of transition. Research does show that most young people who think they are trans eventually find they are gay/gender non-conforming.

The bill has the wording that is open to interpretation (and we can see just how that is working for us in the UK with other laws.) However, we also have seen how it has been manipulated in Australia, Canada and the USA. That is the issue. It is the open to interpretation that can then be manipulated that is the issue. And when you have no set and abiding diagnosis tool, or even what certain terms mean as well as what constitutes the best treatment plans, that is a recipe for an ill defined law.

Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 09:27

@Helleofabore apologise, i didn't inc the full quote

Ms Reeves said "biological characteristics" were what defined most women but also would not want to exclude people who are born a different gender and go through a gender recognition process from living "the live they choose".

She added that it was also important to ensure that there are "single sex spaces in prisons, in refuges and in sport, which is obviously an issue of topical debate at the moment".

Personally, if Labour do not exclude trans from these spaces etc, i wont be voting Labour either, which is why i will wait and see what is in their manifesto.

lifeturnsonadime · 08/04/2022 09:36

Well ‘biological characteristics’ can mean anything. According to Grace Lavery on Woman’s Hour yesterday secondary biological characteristics such as boobs are what define a woman not primary ones such as our chromosomes.

The Labour Party has every opportunity to win my vote back. I won’t hold my breath.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2022 09:40

Personally, if Labour do not exclude trans from these spaces etc, i wont be voting Labour either, which is why i will wait and see what is in their manifesto.

The cognitive dissonance is a crescendo, isn't it?

There is so little trust around this issue.

I am heartened a modicum by the fact that the government did put the issue out for consultation on self ID, did then carefully review it and even took into consideration the 'spam' replies and tried to make appropriate changes. That the SNP did the same and ignored groups they consider 'not the right groups' is a clear indication of how this has all gone wrong.

I think that it is actually a very good exercise to ask 'what is a woman' to politicians now. Because you will certainly be able to use it as a gauge as to how honest their replies and statements are about other issues.

DrSbaitso · 08/04/2022 09:41

[quote Alexandra2001]@Helleofabore apologise, i didn't inc the full quote

Ms Reeves said "biological characteristics" were what defined most women but also would not want to exclude people who are born a different gender and go through a gender recognition process from living "the live they choose".

She added that it was also important to ensure that there are "single sex spaces in prisons, in refuges and in sport, which is obviously an issue of topical debate at the moment".

Personally, if Labour do not exclude trans from these spaces etc, i wont be voting Labour either, which is why i will wait and see what is in their manifesto.[/quote]
Well, that's the "some women have penises" line. Biological characteristics are literally how we tell men from women, including those people with a difference of development along either pathway, recognisable as a difference only because the pathways exist and are known.

Not good enough, Rach.

HRTQueen · 08/04/2022 09:58

biological characteristics are what completely separates men and women

Should we be so gullible to rethink this as some politicians are stating it’s what separates most women. It’s all women not most women

MarshaBradyo · 08/04/2022 10:06

@HRTQueen

biological characteristics are what completely separates men and women

Should we be so gullible to rethink this as some politicians are stating it’s what separates most women. It’s all women not most women

Yes to this
Helleofabore · 08/04/2022 10:08

It is like G Lavery yesterday on Woman’s Hour using the term ‘organic’. Yes. All humans are organic. Still doesn’t mean males can become females. And surgically alternating bodies and artificially changing hormones doesn’t push any male over some magical 1/2 or 2/3 benchmark where they can be ‘biological’ or ‘organically’ female. It is cruel for people to let anyone think otherwise.

Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 10:16

@HRTQueen

biological characteristics are what completely separates men and women

Should we be so gullible to rethink this as some politicians are stating it’s what separates most women. It’s all women not most women

Yes on re think, her answer appears to be odd.

I don't know enough about Intersex, perhaps thats what she meant....

Helleofabore · 08/04/2022 10:22

I think Rachel was simply repeating the new standard party line. Women are adult human females AND any one else who wants to be.

The party seem to be following the same play book which they think will placate angry women voters. It just makes them now look dodgy as fuck on this issue and willing to play linguistic games.

Polyanthus2 · 08/04/2022 10:23

He had such a manly voice that I don't imagine that many people would actually see him as a woman, or at least not on first acquaintance. So his life is not really that of a woman if everyone's first opinion is probably that he is transgender.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2022 10:29

I personally think if they had their ‘moment’ in the hot tub where they just knew they were a woman, perhaps they had the heat on too high. Because since then the misogynistic statements they have made to get noticed are no different really from a teenaged boy with an enlarged….. vocabulary… trying to shock the adults.

DrSbaitso · 08/04/2022 10:32

Women are adult human females AND any one else who wants to be.

Then they aren't adult human females. And any kind of equality and diversity programme for female people is torn asunder, or indeed any sporting programme. Since you can't exclude women from a women's programme.

Words need to be exclusionary or they have no meaning. A cat is not a clock.

Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 10:34

@Helleofabore

I think Rachel was simply repeating the new standard party line. Women are adult human females AND any one else who wants to be.

The party seem to be following the same play book which they think will placate angry women voters. It just makes them now look dodgy as fuck on this issue and willing to play linguistic games.

Thats exactly the same as ALL mainstream parties, no party is saying they will prevent men from calling themselves women and as shown with Emily Bridges, it was the UCI that stopped her competing NOT Johnson. Johnson, has in his gift, the power to re introduce single sex wards, female only prisons and keep female sport female but he wont do it & that is why i do not trust him.... he says one thing and does another.
TheKeatingFive · 08/04/2022 10:37

All this fudging that Labour are doing is concerning. We need clarity, not slippery language. It undermines trust significantly

Helleofabore · 08/04/2022 10:44

Johnson, has in his gift, the power to re introduce single sex wards, female only prisons and keep female sport female but he wont do it & that is why i do not trust him.... he says one thing and does another.

And we are waiting to see how far we can get these exceptions back on track now. It will take time. But there is an indication that there is at least a will to get this right, and a willingness to listen to both sides.

I agree that no political party is doing this perfectly and that mistakes were allowed to happen. It may be a totally different story in 12 months. Over the past 12-18 we have the start of the Cass report, we have had the feedback from various consultations, the OIC decisions, the legal cases that have been heard, the EHRC guidance, the massive tantrumming from the lobby groups and so on and so on.

I am also willing to watch and wait with the Labour Party. But they better start soon, because the gap will be too hard to get even on soon.

Blossomtoes · 08/04/2022 11:12

@TheKeatingFive

So I agree that he's not actually done anything. It remains to be seen if he will actually do anything either.

Not doing anything would be infinitely preferable to the changes Labour are proposing, so that would still be beneficial.

What changes are Labour proposing? Can you link to them for those of us who have missed them?
EndaDay · 08/04/2022 11:45

He has broken cover and stated what others in political life are afraid to do so.

When Keir Starmer et al see that most women agree with Boris, they will backtrack and find themselves able to define a woman. So thanks Boris, for being the first and hopefully changing the attitude.

It would now be super if he put JK Rowling forward to become a Dame.

EndaDay · 08/04/2022 11:48

Or even better, appointed JKR as Woman Tsar in charge of hunting down all bullshit that says it is tricky to define a woman or even to quote Yvette Cooper refuse to define a woman when asked by saying " I'm not going down that rabbit hole"

Defining a woman is now going down a rabbit hole.

Hotzenplotz · 08/04/2022 11:52

Never thought in a million years I'd agree with Johnson, but here we are.

Must be End Times.

LouisRenault · 08/04/2022 12:49

It would now be super if he put JK Rowling forward to become a Dame.

No, a peer, so she can sit in the House of Lords and make an active contribution to political life. But I suspect a damehood or peerage might have been offered in the past and declined. She's probably too busy with her own work and interests to give it time.

It would send a massive message if he and JKR were to have a meeting at No 10, though.

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