… to wonder why people continue having more children if they cannot cope with the ones that they already have?

[NetflixMom21]

… or am I just being extremely judgemental?

A couple of recent interactions and conversations with people that I know has got me thinking about this. In one situation; the person in question already has a couple of children plus a couple of stepchildren which they have 50% of the time, they are always complaining of having no money, they have openly said that they max out their credit cards to survive and pay their bills every month and are in a lot of debt because of it… now they have just announced that they are having another child.

In the second situation; the person in question has 5 children. The first child was born with a severe disability and they were told that it could possibly be genetic and that if they had anymore children, those children could have a disability too. The second child was also born with a disability, but not as severe as the first. The person then went onto having 3 more children, of which, another child has a similar disability to the first 2. So 3 out of 5 children are disabled. This person now admits that they are unable to cope and it massively impacts on the care that they are able to give their children.

In the third situation; someone that I know was born with cystic fibrosis (they are the first born child of the family). They nearly died as a young child and was only just about saved by a lung transplant which they were incredibly lucky to get. The parents have gone on to have more and more children, even though they know that they have the gene for cystic fibrosis and any child that they have may be born with it too and after watching how badly their first child has suffered. Well another child has been born with it, and suffers horrendously already (they are reception/year 1 age) and unless they receive a lung transplant, they might not even make it to a teenager.

My own situation; I have a progressive disability myself and also a child that has a disability. I know that I will never have anymore children (I am looking into surgical procedures to ensure this) because I know that firstly, I will not be able to cope with my own illness and that is not fair on the child especially as I know that there is a possibility of me having another child with a disability, and secondly; I do not know how much independence my child will go onto have as a teenager and adult, and if I had another child, it would impact on the level of care that I am able provide for my child and that isn’t fair on them.

AIBU to wonder why people in these situations continue having more and more children rather than focusing on the ones that they have, and then constantly complain of being unable to cope?!

Lack of education I always thought.

I don't think personally anyone needs more than 2 kids, we have a responsibility for the future of the planet and over population is a major issue.

@Joy247, amazing posts. You're absolutely right.

Joy247 you make some excellent points. Why is marriage and motherhood seen as the top prize for a woman? The patriarchy have us exactly where they want us!

I remember Teresa May being rubbished because she had no children, therefore had no idea about what issues "hard-working families" were facing. Ridiculous and sexist.

I think a lot of the desire for babies is rooted in low self-esteem of the women. I admire women who remain childless by choice; I'm in my mid-50s and know a few. All are wonderfully successful, well-off, supremely content with their lives.

I’ll be honest, I judge too. Partly because I have a friend who was the younger sibling of a severely disabled brother and the impact it had on her life. All of her parents’ time and energy went on looking after him, so she said they were too exhausted to ever do anything with her. He was physically big and strong, but also non verbal and violent so she would have to hide from him when he was having violent outbursts. He was also really sensitive to noise, so she couldn’t play much in her own house. As she got older she was expected to help care for him.
In the end, she had had enough and moved away, going low contact with her family. She never understood why they had had her, and didn’t feel loved or prioritised.

Thanks! all I can do as an older woman (well, life left in me yet but definitely past the window of fertility) is to just be really really honest.

I won't dress up the decisions I made as a younger woman, because on one level, I knew they felt wrong. But the bit I couldn't OVERRIDE was that desire to win approval, my mother's, society's, strangers' approval.

If only we were all told to tune all of that. We're not told that though. We're told ''oh don't give up hope!''. ''love might be around the corner'' and ''don't give up hope'' and it's all sold to us as the only happy ending.

The happy ending might be that we realise we're being sold this patriarchal narrative. Have DC if you want to of course. If you're H is meeting you half way.

@Limer

Joy247 you make some excellent points. Why is marriage and motherhood seen as the top prize for a woman? The patriarchy have us exactly where they want us!

I remember Teresa May being rubbished because she had no children, therefore had no idea about what issues "hard-working families" were facing. Ridiculous and sexist.

I think a lot of the desire for babies is rooted in low self-esteem of the women. I admire women who remain childless by choice; I'm in my mid-50s and know a few. All are wonderfully successful, well-off, supremely content with their lives.

I think unfortunately there are still vestiges of medieval thinking, regarding childless and/or unmarried women. Echoes of ancient wrongs still heard today. The 17th century witch hunts for example - much more deadly for single childless older women on the margins of society Older unmarried women were ridiculed for centuries, in literature and on the stage. I think those ideas have got into many people's subconscious, and meanwhile mothers and motherhood are endlessly celebrated, and it's still held up as the ideal by the media etc. As a result, I think many women are terrified of ending up childless. I think a concerted effort needs to be made to celebrate women who haven't given birth. They need to be seen as the heroines they often are. Not having children, when you know life could be challenging for them (due to a medical condition or whatever) is selfless, compassionate, brave, and yes, very motherly...

Hate to be "that person" but this is a very simplistic and western view of developing countries

Yes ...hope and something to love sounds more like a middle class western reason to have children.

Having children is a basic biological process. To restrict the number is the unnatural thing. It is generally not up to women in poor countries to make that choice, but reasons for having lots of children include status, to look after you when you are old, because some are likely to die, because you want a son and only have several daughters, rape within marriage, lack of contraception, religious expectation, or because it's just what is expected. In countries where women are educated and have access to contraception, fertility rates decline rapidly.

I think a lot of the desire for babies is rooted in low self-esteem of the women. I admire women who remain childless by choice; I'm in my mid-50s and know a few. All are wonderfully successful, well-off, supremely content with their lives.

The desire for an excessive number of babies may be rooted in low self esteem. Never being happy and enjoying the newness of it all. Saying the desire for anyone to have a baby is a massive generalisation.

Also, people are absolutely capable of being successful with a child, or multiple children, regardless of age. As much as I admire women who are childfree, I hate the narrative that having children (young, or even at all) makes you less successful. Ironically, that's also rooted in low self esteem of a different kind- fear of missing out, so consoling oneself they're doing better anyway.

Anyway, even back to excessive babies... it's not great but I do empathise.

In countries where women are educated and have access to contraception, fertility rates decline rapidly.

That is encouraging. But we also need to address the myth that this country needs more and more babies to support the ageing population. That's a Ponzi scheme that will end in disaster. Climate change, spiralling costs of living, dwindling resources all mean that we need to reduce population, not increase it.

yes @WanderingFruitWonderer absolutely, it's more than ''just'' the fear of not having children. It's the fear of being on the margins of a society that kind of mocks and pities you.

@Joy247
Not quite the same circs as you but when DH and I discussed whether to start the fertility treatment route (many years ago, harder route, less choices) The intermal voice that said "you don't have to do this to be successful" came from my parents. At the time they had one grandchild from a sibling and they adored him but had been clear since we were all children (I am the youngest and born in the 50's) that marriage and children were not the only, or even the best, choice.
As I said upthread, the adults of the future won't "get" this until they are told this in their homes and see it modelled in their parents behaviour and in society.
You mothers and mothers in law (men too but I don't think they seem to be so vocal about it).....I am not saying don't rejoice when the grandchildren come IF they come.....but think about the baby-centric behaviour...boast about your family's achievements other than the children.
I do agree about un maternity leave...I would have loved it.

@fanjosaysi

I think a lot of the desire for babies is rooted in low self-esteem of the women. I admire women who remain childless by choice; I'm in my mid-50s and know a few. All are wonderfully successful, well-off, supremely content with their lives.

The desire for an excessive number of babies may be rooted in low self esteem. Never being happy and enjoying the newness of it all. Saying the desire for anyone to have a baby is a massive generalisation.

Also, people are absolutely capable of being successful with a child, or multiple children, regardless of age. As much as I admire women who are childfree, I hate the narrative that having children (young, or even at all) makes you less successful. Ironically, that's also rooted in low self esteem of a different kind- fear of missing out, so consoling oneself they're doing better anyway.

Anyway, even back to excessive babies... it's not great but I do empathise.

But even ONE baby can be excessive if you know you can't support it and care for it or are putting it at risk of genetic illness and you still deliberately TTC or pretend that you aren't TTC but don't use contraception sensibly.

Yes people are capable of having a child or children and being successful, but II don't think that anybody would deny that its harder....takes more planning...takes more resource...takes more determination.

[quote godmum56]@Joy247
Not quite the same circs as you but when DH and I discussed whether to start the fertility treatment route (many years ago, harder route, less choices) The intermal voice that said "you don't have to do this to be successful" came from my parents. At the time they had one grandchild from a sibling and they adored him but had been clear since we were all children (I am the youngest and born in the 50's) that marriage and children were not the only, or even the best, choice.
As I said upthread, the adults of the future won't "get" this until they are told this in their homes and see it modelled in their parents behaviour and in society.
You mothers and mothers in law (men too but I don't think they seem to be so vocal about it).....I am not saying don't rejoice when the grandchildren come IF they come.....but think about the baby-centric behaviour...boast about your family's achievements other than the children.
I do agree about un maternity leave...I would have loved it.[/quote]
Absoloutely. sorry you went through the extra hurdle of fertility treatments.

Jokes like ''I'll have to knit my own grandchildren'' take their toll.
My mother and father had a good life before grandchildren, they didn't need me to do the wrong thing for me just to had a bit more to their lives. But they did put that pressure on me, knowing i wasn't in a relationship.

oh sorry, you had the reassurance from your parents that you did not need to do it for them! to them for getting it.
And doh to me for skim reading!

Some people do not have the Critical thinking skills nor access to support or education about these matters.

It's Just taken for granted. This is what everyone does,they have children. Lot's of them.

Interesting question from a number of angles. The non disabled children becoming carers at a very young age, the pressure placed on them to put their own lives on hold to care for siblings and/ or parents. My own situation, where after finding there was a possibility of a genetic pre disposition to cancer (was told there wasn't despite strong family history),I went on to have another child. My sil accused me of being selfish and I should have been sterilised. Did she have the right to say that? Is it different because my kids can be tested for the gene, checked, and any problem found quickly? I do think that if you're not coping with the current circumstances then don't have more kids, but you can't really police that. Mental health support would be a big part of the answer but without funding where does that come from ? Maybe not so much judgemental as expressing serious concerns.

[quote godmum56]@Joy247
Not quite the same circs as you but when DH and I discussed whether to start the fertility treatment route (many years ago, harder route, less choices) The intermal voice that said "you don't have to do this to be successful" came from my parents. At the time they had one grandchild from a sibling and they adored him but had been clear since we were all children (I am the youngest and born in the 50's) that marriage and children were not the only, or even the best, choice.
As I said upthread, the adults of the future won't "get" this until they are told this in their homes and see it modelled in their parents behaviour and in society.
You mothers and mothers in law (men too but I don't think they seem to be so vocal about it).....I am not saying don't rejoice when the grandchildren come IF they come.....but think about the baby-centric behaviour...boast about your family's achievements other than the children.
I do agree about un maternity leave...I would have loved it.[/quote]
I agree. DH and I were in this position in the 90s. My mother was certainly not desperate to be a grandmother (was never very maternal) and actually said we could have a great life without children. My DB did eventually oblige but she was 85 by then and not in the best of health.

Another all too common situation is where people want "one of each", so they keep trying until they get that. Such an old-fashioned attitude.

As a child carer - I was very adamant I’d never have children. I still am though it’s cost me relationships in the past until I met my husband.

I watched my parents bury two children, the other three of us having to be pulled in and out of kinship care for years depending on my mum’s mental health. Which wasn’t her fault but it was very difficult for us.

When I turned thirty my mother became obsessed with becoming a grandmother. It was all she’d talk about and it really damaged an already precarious relationship. When all my friends began to have babies it almost came a bone of contention - look how well they are doing with their kids and husbands etc

I’ve also lost friends because we also don’t have anything in common even though I went to soft play for a coffee or attended their kids parties so that became incredibly frustrating and I can see why some people might have kids just to feel normal.

Ironically - the closest I ever came to wanting kids was in my early twenties (when my mum would have been furious) living in another country with a man who is an incredible husband and father. With him and at that time I’d have probably had one but we broke up ironically because I wanted to settle down and he wanted to travel.

I agree with PP, as a society we are still uncomfortable with childless women. Most of us are raised by our mother's along with grandparents and other family members with children. Unless you've had say a very influential childless aunt or family friend you probably haven't had much exposure to women in this situation.

Also add in that many women from difficult backgrounds won't have done well in education and their ability to find careers that give status and satisfaction will be limited. That can make childbearing seem even more like the only life option available to them.

@Joy247
we didn't do the fertility treatment....its brutal now but it was worse then and less chance of success plus there was no NHS rule about being able to have it. I did have my hormone driven moments of grief but it really does help to be able to recognise that its coming from the hormones and not the head and I am SURE that this comes from knowing your own value as a person and not an incubator or, for that matter, a sperm provider.

@WanderingFruitWonderer Has nailed it. My last manager told my team that I was having an emergency hysterectomy to save my life, which meant that when I returned my colleagues knew I couldn’t have children. One of them blurted out, clearly distressed, that she’d rather have died than be unable to have kids. She did apologise, but I think I hadn’t realised until that moment how uncomfortable the prospect of childlessness is for people.

That’s without even going into the regular guff - you don’t know love without it, it makes you a better person, it’s the most rewarding job there is, you can’t know what tired is etc etc etc. We live in a society which deifies motherhood, and to keep that status quo, anyone opting out of it has to be brought into line.

It’s doubly difficult when you wanted to be part of it, but were denied by circumstances, AND had an abusive mother yourself! The cult of motherhood has done nothing but cause me pain, and it’d be lovely to see other expressions of womanhood celebrated too.

Sorry for the ramble!

@WhatNoRaisins

I agree with PP, as a society we are still uncomfortable with childless women. Most of us are raised by our mother's along with grandparents and other family members with children. Unless you've had say a very influential childless aunt or family friend you probably haven't had much exposure to women in this situation.

Also add in that many women from difficult backgrounds won't have done well in education and their ability to find careers that give status and satisfaction will be limited. That can make childbearing seem even more like the only life option available to them.

All the adult women I knew as a child and a teenager had children. The difference was that the message and the modellng came from my parents. They adored us kids and wanted the best for us. Their mesage was simple You are loved and you are enough You get to choose. Don't drift, think and choose.

@Zombiemum1946

Interesting question from a number of angles. The non disabled children becoming carers at a very young age, the pressure placed on them to put their own lives on hold to care for siblings and/ or parents. My own situation, where after finding there was a possibility of a genetic pre disposition to cancer (was told there wasn't despite strong family history),I went on to have another child. My sil accused me of being selfish and I should have been sterilised. Did she have the right to say that? Is it different because my kids can be tested for the gene, checked, and any problem found quickly? I do think that if you're not coping with the current circumstances then don't have more kids, but you can't really police that. Mental health support would be a big part of the answer but without funding where does that come from ? Maybe not so much judgemental as expressing serious concerns.

I don't think anybody has said that it should be policed or that there is any acceptable way of policing it but i think like lots of other things, society's attitude can be changed by talking about it and expressing the "unnacceptable" opinions. And yes I judge. Sometimes my judgement is what an idiot or what a selfish idiot, sometimes my judgement is that the person has been dealt a poor hand but I won't excuse or soften my (unspoken) opinion by calling it concern.

[quote MabelsApron]@WanderingFruitWonderer Has nailed it. My last manager told my team that I was having an emergency hysterectomy to save my life, which meant that when I returned my colleagues knew I couldn’t have children. One of them blurted out, clearly distressed, that she’d rather have died than be unable to have kids. She did apologise, but I think I hadn’t realised until that moment how uncomfortable the prospect of childlessness is for people.

That’s without even going into the regular guff - you don’t know love without it, it makes you a better person, it’s the most rewarding job there is, you can’t know what tired is etc etc etc. We live in a society which deifies motherhood, and to keep that status quo, anyone opting out of it has to be brought into line.

It’s doubly difficult when you wanted to be part of it, but were denied by circumstances, AND had an abusive mother yourself! The cult of motherhood has done nothing but cause me pain, and it’d be lovely to see other expressions of womanhood celebrated too.

Sorry for the ramble![/quote]
what a pity your work colleague is an idiot.