… to wonder why people continue having more children if they cannot cope with the ones that they already have?

[NetflixMom21]

… or am I just being extremely judgemental?

A couple of recent interactions and conversations with people that I know has got me thinking about this. In one situation; the person in question already has a couple of children plus a couple of stepchildren which they have 50% of the time, they are always complaining of having no money, they have openly said that they max out their credit cards to survive and pay their bills every month and are in a lot of debt because of it… now they have just announced that they are having another child.

In the second situation; the person in question has 5 children. The first child was born with a severe disability and they were told that it could possibly be genetic and that if they had anymore children, those children could have a disability too. The second child was also born with a disability, but not as severe as the first. The person then went onto having 3 more children, of which, another child has a similar disability to the first 2. So 3 out of 5 children are disabled. This person now admits that they are unable to cope and it massively impacts on the care that they are able to give their children.

In the third situation; someone that I know was born with cystic fibrosis (they are the first born child of the family). They nearly died as a young child and was only just about saved by a lung transplant which they were incredibly lucky to get. The parents have gone on to have more and more children, even though they know that they have the gene for cystic fibrosis and any child that they have may be born with it too and after watching how badly their first child has suffered. Well another child has been born with it, and suffers horrendously already (they are reception/year 1 age) and unless they receive a lung transplant, they might not even make it to a teenager.

My own situation; I have a progressive disability myself and also a child that has a disability. I know that I will never have anymore children (I am looking into surgical procedures to ensure this) because I know that firstly, I will not be able to cope with my own illness and that is not fair on the child especially as I know that there is a possibility of me having another child with a disability, and secondly; I do not know how much independence my child will go onto have as a teenager and adult, and if I had another child, it would impact on the level of care that I am able provide for my child and that isn’t fair on them.

AIBU to wonder why people in these situations continue having more and more children rather than focusing on the ones that they have, and then constantly complain of being unable to cope?!

@Thesefeetaremadeforwalking

To me all this says that the education for young people is sadly lacking somewhere.

Education IMO should prepare individuals for life not just to get certificates/qualifications.

At school, do kids get taught age-appropriate relationship education, (not just 'sex education') housecraft, budgeting, how to read a gas meter, about drugs, alcohol, parenting?

Maybe some of the teachers here can come and enlighten us about how schools are preparing kids to be useful responsible citizens?

You can't put everything on teachers.

A few decades ago there weren't as many resources as there are now online about budgeting, drugs, alcohol, there are even apps now for budgeting and the gas/electric meter companies show you how to read the meters. There's videos on YouTube on how to change a tire, change a light bulb, how to do DIY etc. It's amazing how many people on here, supposedly educated people and earning well, struggle with their finances. So it's not just the poorly educated who don't bother or want someone else to think for them.

There's plenty of knowledge out there, the issue is the parents are lazy and can't be bothered. They send their children to school with no manners, and sometimes not even potty trained. Still in diapers at 4. Unless there is a physical disability, that's bad. They expect someone else to do it.

@AllOfUsAreDead

There's plenty of knowledge out there, the issue is the parents are lazy and can't be bothered. They send their children to school with no manners, and sometimes not even potty trained. Still in diapers at 4. Unless there is a physical disability, that's bad. They expect someone else to do it.

So how do we deal with this 'Nanny State' mentality ?

" To me all this says that the education for young people is sadly lacking somewhere.
*
Education IMO should prepare individuals for life not just to get certificates/qualifications.

At school, do kids get taught age-appropriate relationship education, (not just 'sex education') housecraft, budgeting, how to read a gas meter, about drugs, alcohol, parenting?

Maybe some of the teachers here can come and enlighten us about how schools are preparing kids to be useful responsible citizens?*"

Schools now are required to have a well planned and robust PSHE curriculum. This includes Relationships and sex education. The emphasis has been changed in the last few years that alongside the traditional "sex education" we need to be educating children about healthy relationships.
The thing is though, a lot does happen in schools but you really can't put the full responsibility of raising an emotionally happy, healthy and responsible citizens on to schools. The fact is, home life plays a huge part because they spend most of their lives there.
That's why we see certain family cycles repeated in different generations.
Schools can certainly be part of the solution and could do more if they were actually funded adequately to employ family support workers or learning mentors for example. But actually we need much more support for families out of school too otherwise it's a drop in the ocean.

I also don't understand the whole 'accidents happen'. Very few children are down to contraceptive failures when that contraceptive was being followed by the book.

[quote Thesefeetaremadeforwalking]@AllOfUsAreDead

There's plenty of knowledge out there, the issue is the parents are lazy and can't be bothered. They send their children to school with no manners, and sometimes not even potty trained. Still in diapers at 4. Unless there is a physical disability, that's bad. They expect someone else to do it.

So how do we deal with this 'Nanny State' mentality ?[/quote]
Be blunt about it and tell them to get on with parenting and stop being lazy. Unfortunately with our now overly sensitive mindset being introduced, we can't do that because we might hurt someone's feelings. But it's ok to make children suffer for their parents uselessness. I would rather hurt someone's feelings and embarrass them into educating themselves so they can then educate their child than watch more people go out into the world unprepared for it. But that's not what the 'bekind' lot want, it's better to let the kids suffer and make the same mistakes.

@Someonemustknowtheanswer

I also don't understand the whole 'accidents happen'. Very few children are down to contraceptive failures when that contraceptive was being followed by the book.

And many “accidents” are the result of getting drunk/carried away and not using contraception correctly/at all.

@WTF475878237NC

I would argue that people with poor prospects and little agency over their lives don't have the same incentive (and possibly ability) to plan their lives in the same way that those that are financially stable do.

^ I agree. It's like some people just don't plan for their financial future either. It's not on their radar because they haven't had the same experiences or privileges to even know it's necessary.

What a way to infantilize grown adults. They have agency to not the produce. It’s this kind of ‘oh you pot helpless soul’ attitude that is the problem.

To me all this says that the education for young people is sadly lacking somewhere.
*
Education IMO should prepare individuals for life not just to get certificates/qualifications.

At school, do kids get taught age-appropriate relationship education, (not just 'sex education') housecraft, budgeting, how to read a gas meter, about drugs, alcohol, parenting?

Maybe some of the teachers here can come and enlighten us about how schools are preparing kids to be useful responsible citizens?*"

And seriously then, what’s the role of the parents/carers? Maybe all kids should be shipped to boarding school…!

I also don't understand the whole 'accidents happen'

I’m sure they can happen once or twice. Three or four or five times takes the biscuit - for fathers as well as mother’s of numerous ‘accidental’ children.

@ToxicBuns

YANBU. OP I completely agree with you. I hate (yes HATE) it when you see a person with a stroller with a kid in it bawling it's eyes out then alongside that more kids just slightly older than the one in the stroller also usually bawling. And then you have the "parent" an orange monstrosity with a cottage loaf on her head fag or vape in one hand, phone in the other hand and visibly pregnant again shouting and screaming at the poor bloody children whilst yammering in the phone between drags or a rat faced looking, pigeon chested tosser with grey tracksuit bottoms on lumbering along also shouting obscenities at the poor blood children. 😳

Harsh but true.

It is other people's business though. It is the CHILDREN in that family's business. I am a teacher and we get quite weary of seeing poorly parented, ignored teenagers with 4 or 5 siblings. Who can't make revision classes, clubs or homework sessions because they have to shoot off to collect little siblings from primary.

Yes we see a lot of this at primary, children from larger families (not wanting to generalise - many large families are I’m sure very organised and loving, but not so much where I work…) being picked up by older siblings who are often slightly late - we know this is because they’ve had to rush over straight from the secondary school. These same children never completely any readings at home, parents show no interest in coming to parent evenings, we generally have to send messages home to point out their shoes don’t fit, their glasses need replacing, they have toothache and should see a dentist… a lot of safeguarding forms filled out for what unfortunately just seems to be classed as minor neglect but has a big impact. You can’t cope with the children you have, don’t have more. I think anyone who advocates that it’s no one else’s business doesn’t have much experience in seeing how it affects the neglected siblings. Their childhoods are effectively ruined and chances of succeeding in later in life made much more difficult by their parent’s selfishness.

Because they don't think about consequences. It's also a selfish way to avoid dealing with your trauma, as you are constantly distracted. My brother who can't keep a job for more than few months , financially very insecure, however, keeps having children who he can't afford. He has four now. It's in a third world country, no help from government. His oldest has massive problem with his teeth ( poor diet, no money for dentist), his third child has MH problems. My family is dreading his wife pregnancy announcements, as we all have to help them financially and with childcare. He doesn't think with his head.

I think women who choose not to become pregnant, because they know that in their circumstances it would be selfish and irresponsible to do so, are not thanked nearly enough. Especially if they would have loved to have had children. In a way they've done the most motherly nurturing thing of all, and are heroines in my view...

Eve117 it’s terribly sad that children are not fed and their health and dental needs are ignored. I suppose these parents can’t be bothered to organise health appointments because ophthalmic and dentistry are free for children. God help them all.

The deserving and undeserving poor debate has been going on since Gladstone and Disrailie’s time. All of you wringing your hands need to realise that capitalism only works by some people having a really shit life and you are enjoying yours at their literal expense if everything starts levelling up most of you will be screwed because you don’t have the life you have because youre clever.

Putting religious reasons aside, I've noticed that those who are most opposed to abortion are from lower social classes. I know a really nice woman who has one dc...she is from a WC family. She's a single mum, she ended up pregnant again from a casual fling. She terminated. Her family were horrified and angry with her. They are not religious by the way. Also the other woman I know who was genuinely and openly gutted about being pregnant with her third wouldn't entertain the idea of a termination. I didn't say anything but I wanted to tell her to just have an abortion. Seriously. You are choosing to make your life and the life of your existing children so much harder. I actually think abortion should be more normalised.

Well I don’t think it should be normalised like having a coffee. I think contraception should be taken much more seriously and there are so many different methods available as well as the morning after pill. Abortion should be the last resort.

@Nothappyatwork

The deserving and undeserving poor debate has been going on since Gladstone and Disrailie’s time. All of you wringing your hands need to realise that capitalism only works by some people having a really shit life and you are enjoying yours at their literal expense if everything starts levelling up most of you will be screwed because you don’t have the life you have because youre clever.

You're making many assumptions about people who've posted on this thread. I agree that some posts have been very extreme and poor shaming. Of course that's wrong. But many are from people who themselves have chosen not to have children, or any more children because they aren't well off, and are not huge beneficiaries of the capitalist system. Of course everyone in the western world is very privileged by global standards. I'm very left-wing politically, and I have empathy and understanding for people who find themselves in a situation of a struggling parent, and they, and their children, should be helped. But I still think those who choose not to have children, for selfless reasons, knowing their potential children's lives would be very challenging, have made the better moral choice...

I was one of these women and I do judge myself in hindsight, despite having the self awareness now to understand my choices.
I was brought up in poverty with seriously chaotic home life (domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism, maternal mental health issues, mum had 3 kids by 3 fathers). I fell pregnant at 20 (slack contraceptive usage) to a casual fling, I wasn't working at the time and we had the baby knowing that benefits would make up the majority of our income and that was totally fine because that's how I was brought up and how everyone I knew lived. I didn't know anyone with a career or who owned a home.

Got pregnant with 2nd 4 months after having 1st (had coil fitting booked for the day I found out!). Didn't at any point seriously consider termination as this was just the direction of my life, I accepted it as it was the way everyone I knew lived - having children in poverty wasn't seen as a bad thing because everyone else did. Baby number 3 at 24, again unplanned and TBH I was devastated (clearly I'm shit at taking the pill but I just claimed it failed!) but still didn't seriously consider a termination. We just assumed we would cope. Baby number 4 was sadly lost at 22 weeks, I was secretly relieved and hated myself for that for years. I felt like the universe had let me off the hook!

Now at this point, mid to late 20s I started to look at my life and my future and decided that planning and ambition would be a good thing. Looking back, this coincided with distancing myself from family and friends with similar chaotic lives and spending time with sensible, 'grown up' women who actually planned their children, had jobs, looked to the future (no one in my life before did that, it was just bouncing from one drama to another).

I got a part time job, studied, planned to become a nurse. Fell pregnant again and booked the termination the day after I found out. It was an easy decision and I never once regretted or felt sad for it. Looking back, the difference was that I had a vision of the future for the first time in my life. I had something to work towards and hope of getting us out of poverty - a 4th child didn't fit into that.

Now, I love my 3 children and they are all wonderful, but if I could go back in time and make the same choices - would I? Hell no! It breaks my heart that I can't afford the life I'd like to give them (yet) and we still don't own a home and they may well be missing out on things that I could have given them if I'd only had 2. The quality of life of my kids suffers because of the fact I had 3 despite unfavourable circumstances.

I still judge others who do the same. I judge myself. But I also understand that the knowledge and level of awareness I have now, I didn't have when I made those choices and some people will never have this. Poverty and deprivation breed more poverty and deprivation and it's really, really hard to break that cycle.

@Someonemustknowtheanswer

I also don't understand the whole 'accidents happen'. Very few children are down to contraceptive failures when that contraceptive was being followed by the book.

I agree with this. I wonder how many ‘accidents’ were true accidents or were actually the result of carelessness, drunkenness or ‘hoping for the best’.

I’ve been (very) sexually active for 23 years. I’ve never once conceived, never even had a pregnancy scare, in fact I’ve never needed to do a home pregnancy test. I’ve been religious about contraception from day 1, because it was so important to me not to get pregnant. This isn’t rocket science, and there are so many contraceptive options available now that ‘accidents’ should be very uncommon.

"I’ve been religious about contraception from day 1, because it was so important to me not to get pregnant."

I think this is key. I know people who take the belt and braces approach eg pill and condoms because they really, really didn't want to get pregnant.

Poverty and deprivation breed more poverty and deprivation and it's really, really hard to break that cycle

That is absolutely true. The other factor over which you have no control is parental love. I don't want to romanticise, but I have seen children from very financially/socially deprived backgrounds do well because their parents (or mothers, at least) and grandparents are emotionally invested in them. If your parents/grandparents don't give a fuck, you really stand no chance, and you pass the same on to your own kids.

I wonder how many ‘accidents’ were true accidents or were actually the result of carelessness, drunkenness or ‘hoping for the best’

I have the following conversation at least once a week, often once a day.

"Is there any chance you could be pregnant?" No

"Are you using contraception?" No

"Are you sexually active?" Yes

"So how do you know you're not pregnant?" Errr...

This is across all age groups and social groups, btw. I think it's human nature to hope for the best.

@Ambition9to5 sibling is doing amazing thanks to the new drug. Was on 20hrs a day CPAP now around 12hrs. Gained a whopping 20kg (refuses feeding tube)

@RagzRebooted, I am so pleased you were able to break the poverty cycle. Go you!

Theodore Dalrymple, who was a prison doctor in Birmingham, writes very powerfully (from a conservative perspective) on the tragic lives he saw in his inner-city surgeries playing out down the generations.

But in general, I share the opinion that it's irresponsible to have more children than the family can support. There was interesting research published in the US about a sudden drop in crime figures, which correlated to the legalisation of abortion after the Rowe v Wade decision. So making abortion more easily accessible and available does contibute to a better society, because every child should be a wanted child.