… to wonder why people continue having more children if they cannot cope with the ones that they already have?

[NetflixMom21]

… or am I just being extremely judgemental?

A couple of recent interactions and conversations with people that I know has got me thinking about this. In one situation; the person in question already has a couple of children plus a couple of stepchildren which they have 50% of the time, they are always complaining of having no money, they have openly said that they max out their credit cards to survive and pay their bills every month and are in a lot of debt because of it… now they have just announced that they are having another child.

In the second situation; the person in question has 5 children. The first child was born with a severe disability and they were told that it could possibly be genetic and that if they had anymore children, those children could have a disability too. The second child was also born with a disability, but not as severe as the first. The person then went onto having 3 more children, of which, another child has a similar disability to the first 2. So 3 out of 5 children are disabled. This person now admits that they are unable to cope and it massively impacts on the care that they are able to give their children.

In the third situation; someone that I know was born with cystic fibrosis (they are the first born child of the family). They nearly died as a young child and was only just about saved by a lung transplant which they were incredibly lucky to get. The parents have gone on to have more and more children, even though they know that they have the gene for cystic fibrosis and any child that they have may be born with it too and after watching how badly their first child has suffered. Well another child has been born with it, and suffers horrendously already (they are reception/year 1 age) and unless they receive a lung transplant, they might not even make it to a teenager.

My own situation; I have a progressive disability myself and also a child that has a disability. I know that I will never have anymore children (I am looking into surgical procedures to ensure this) because I know that firstly, I will not be able to cope with my own illness and that is not fair on the child especially as I know that there is a possibility of me having another child with a disability, and secondly; I do not know how much independence my child will go onto have as a teenager and adult, and if I had another child, it would impact on the level of care that I am able provide for my child and that isn’t fair on them.

AIBU to wonder why people in these situations continue having more and more children rather than focusing on the ones that they have, and then constantly complain of being unable to cope?!

What an awful thread. Not all women are in a position to choose

Most are. We have free contraception in the UK.

And all are in a position to choose to have pets or more pets. I see in the news today that an increasing number of people are dumping their lockdown pets because of the cost of living.

@WanderingFruitWonderer

I think women who choose not to become pregnant, because they know that in their circumstances it would be selfish and irresponsible to do so, are not thanked nearly enough. Especially if they would have loved to have had children. In a way they've done the most motherly nurturing thing of all, and are heroines in my view...

Exactly.

We need to incentivize this with some sort of benefits, actually. Remaining childfree until or unless one can properly support one's offspring is of definite societal benefit.

@KosherDill I actually agree but it’d never happen as it’d be wildly unpopular with parents. I was reading a thread on here which proposed giving non-parents an equivalent to maternity leave - not taking away maternity leave, just giving non-parents an equivalent sabbatical type thing for them to pursue a passion project - and you’d think the OP had proposed throwing all first borns in the Thames. Giving childless people things is wildly unpopular, hence why politicians never do it.

@RagzRebooted

I was one of these women and I do judge myself in hindsight, despite having the self awareness now to understand my choices. I was brought up in poverty with seriously chaotic home life (domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism, maternal mental health issues, mum had 3 kids by 3 fathers). I fell pregnant at 20 (slack contraceptive usage) to a casual fling, I wasn't working at the time and we had the baby knowing that benefits would make up the majority of our income and that was totally fine because that's how I was brought up and how everyone I knew lived. I didn't know anyone with a career or who owned a home.

Got pregnant with 2nd 4 months after having 1st (had coil fitting booked for the day I found out!). Didn't at any point seriously consider termination as this was just the direction of my life, I accepted it as it was the way everyone I knew lived - having children in poverty wasn't seen as a bad thing because everyone else did. Baby number 3 at 24, again unplanned and TBH I was devastated (clearly I'm shit at taking the pill but I just claimed it failed!) but still didn't seriously consider a termination. We just assumed we would cope. Baby number 4 was sadly lost at 22 weeks, I was secretly relieved and hated myself for that for years. I felt like the universe had let me off the hook!

Now at this point, mid to late 20s I started to look at my life and my future and decided that planning and ambition would be a good thing. Looking back, this coincided with distancing myself from family and friends with similar chaotic lives and spending time with sensible, 'grown up' women who actually planned their children, had jobs, looked to the future (no one in my life before did that, it was just bouncing from one drama to another).

I got a part time job, studied, planned to become a nurse. Fell pregnant again and booked the termination the day after I found out. It was an easy decision and I never once regretted or felt sad for it. Looking back, the difference was that I had a vision of the future for the first time in my life. I had something to work towards and hope of getting us out of poverty - a 4th child didn't fit into that.

Now, I love my 3 children and they are all wonderful, but if I could go back in time and make the same choices - would I? Hell no! It breaks my heart that I can't afford the life I'd like to give them (yet) and we still don't own a home and they may well be missing out on things that I could have given them if I'd only had 2. The quality of life of my kids suffers because of the fact I had 3 despite unfavourable circumstances.

I still judge others who do the same. I judge myself. But I also understand that the knowledge and level of awareness I have now, I didn't have when I made those choices and some people will never have this. Poverty and deprivation breed more poverty and deprivation and it's really, really hard to break that cycle.

This was a beautiful post. You sound like a fantastic parent.

Yes I'm related to someone who never wanted kids but she ended up pregnant due to pill not working, they had baby,all good. Fantastic.

Had help to have a second one coz "you cant just have one " but has convinced herself theres something wrong with this child, endless tests and appointments reveal nothing, she constantly moans about how stressful it is for her and husband.
In the middle of this they go on to have another child and every interaction we have with them they are stressed, tired, snapping and complaining they are so tired,broke and cant get a minute to themselves.

Kids are in the maximum amount of creche and after school care plus childminder sometimes and they constantly complain about how must this costs them but neither of them want to stay at home.
They resent how other people get free childcare from their parents/families but they moved quite far away and her parents still work and dont drive. But life is soooo unfair on her and her husband

Them seem miserable and like nothing pleases them and that got worse with each child they had.

Their life is one big merry-go-round of work, pick ups ,drops offs and scheduled sports and activities on the weekends. No wonder theyre all miserable and always feeling like they cant cope, they do it to themselves. No downtime or enjoying each other.
They seem to hate being parents.

[quote MabelsApron]@KosherDill I actually agree but it’d never happen as it’d be wildly unpopular with parents. I was reading a thread on here which proposed giving non-parents an equivalent to maternity leave - not taking away maternity leave, just giving non-parents an equivalent sabbatical type thing for them to pursue a passion project - and you’d think the OP had proposed throwing all first borns in the Thames. Giving childless people things is wildly unpopular, hence why politicians never do it.[/quote]

You've got that right.

@Sirzy

Summed it up in your first sentence really!

Absolutely. Baffling isn’t it. Max out the credit card & now possibly in debt forever, what they get paid this week goes straight out to a third party, over & over again

@Notimeforaname

Yes I'm related to someone who never wanted kids but she ended up pregnant due to pill not working, they had baby,all good. Fantastic.

Had help to have a second one coz "you cant just have one " but has convinced herself theres something wrong with this child, endless tests and appointments reveal nothing, she constantly moans about how stressful it is for her and husband.
In the middle of this they go on to have another child and every interaction we have with them they are stressed, tired, snapping and complaining they are so tired,broke and cant get a minute to themselves.

Kids are in the maximum amount of creche and after school care plus childminder sometimes and they constantly complain about how must this costs them but neither of them want to stay at home.
They resent how other people get free childcare from their parents/families but they moved quite far away and her parents still work and dont drive. But life is soooo unfair on her and her husband

Them seem miserable and like nothing pleases them and that got worse with each child they had.

Their life is one big merry-go-round of work, pick ups ,drops offs and scheduled sports and activities on the weekends. No wonder theyre all miserable and always feeling like they cant cope, they do it to themselves. No downtime or enjoying each other.
They seem to hate being parents.

Because you can’t just have one!, what a mantra that is. We only had one because we could never have afforded at the time 2. Didn’t miss out on anything. Where I work it’s a constant stream of saying, we need 2/3/4 of those or else they get jealous. No way could I cope with that for a life, met the most miserable family today mum dad 5 kids all under 10, just constant scream from them, & they are on holiday, lovely

[quote MabelsApron]@KosherDill I actually agree but it’d never happen as it’d be wildly unpopular with parents. I was reading a thread on here which proposed giving non-parents an equivalent to maternity leave - not taking away maternity leave, just giving non-parents an equivalent sabbatical type thing for them to pursue a passion project - and you’d think the OP had proposed throwing all first borns in the Thames. Giving childless people things is wildly unpopular, hence why politicians never do it.[/quote]
Why were people so opposed to it? Sounds like an excellent idea: creating a child is super important but not the only thing we can do and those who don’t or can’t have children could create something amazing with the time if they wanted; a film, a book, charity work etc etc. society could really benefit from it.

@FarDownTheRiver It would undermine the societal importance of maternity rights and mothers, and imply that having kids was a lifestyle choice rather than a noble sacrifice on behalf of society. The usual guff, basically.

@OnceuponaRainbow18

To me all this says that the education for young people is sadly lacking somewhere. * Education IMO should prepare individuals for life not just to get certificates/qualifications.

At school, do kids get taught age-appropriate relationship education, (not just 'sex education') housecraft, budgeting, how to read a gas meter, about drugs, alcohol, parenting?

Maybe some of the teachers here can come and enlighten us about how schools are preparing kids to be useful responsible citizens?*"

And seriously then, what’s the role of the parents/carers? Maybe all kids should be shipped to boarding school…!

i think schools can teach what they like but unless the kids see it modelled and valued in their surroundings, they won't take it on board.

@RobertaFirmino

"Belladonna12
A lot of this thread is incredibly ableist. Can't believe people are saying that there's no way they would have a child if they had "a disability" and disabled people shouldn't have children.
I am disabled. I think I shouldn't have children. Any child I had would be likely to inherit my condition and there is no way on God's green earth that I would deliberately subject someone else to it. "

"Then there's the 'young carer' issue. What if I had a child, became a single mother and my condition got worse? That poor child's life would be ruined.

No. If you know your child was likely to suffer and may end up as your carer, it's as selfish as fuck to have that child in the first place. My own DM should not have had me for the above reasons. I will not perpetuate this."

I have met many young carers through their parents who were my patients. Its never a good situation and I salute you for your brave decision. The worst situation I remember was one person who had been diagnosed with a degenerative neurological condition early on in her life. Its one that can go with certain personality traits. She had 4 children. I really don't believe that she bore them to be her carers but they were her care team....all the personal stuff....all the domestic duties....everything....and all of them had different stress related mental health issues. her husband had a job where he travelled a lot....which was convenient for him.

@RampantIvy

"I’ve been religious about contraception from day 1, because it was so important to me not to get pregnant."

I think this is key. I know people who take the belt and braces approach eg pill and condoms because they really, really didn't want to get pregnant.

Yes precisely!

I used coil+ condoms or pill+ condoms for 20 years. Never got pregnant.

Finally was stable enough and had a long term decent partner: Had coil taken out, stopped using condoms: pregnant 5 weeks later.

I'm always sceptical of true "accidents."

Of course it's judgemental.

But being judgemental is fine when you are asking serious questions about bringing children into the world where you know you can't provide adequately for them or think you can't.

My ds also has a progressive disability (genetic). We discovered I have the same gene fault (BSCL2 of unknown significance).

Therefore despite me always wanting lots of kids I've not had anymore.

Why would I bring another child into the world knowing they could have the same disability as ds and maybe even worse and knowing that despite me being asymptomatic it doesn't mean one day it won't affect my health.

I have no doubt these parents love their children and hold onto that % chance of them not having the same condition. Obviously there is also the chance of having some completely unreal aged health or disability issue and being fine. So I get why some people go for a second. But if the second is affected a third and more I just don't understand.

I don't understand it from the POV of someone who's had to deal with the fact I've given my ds a neurological disability I didn't know I had a gene fault for nd someone who's had to deal with the idea of only having 1 child.

Someone I know constantly moans about their OH, how useless he is, how she’s not sure she loves him. Has two DC and admits her OH says he’s only good with their DC once they’re older. Has depression.

Then all of a sudden talks about not bring ‘done’ yet, then oh, she’s pregnant with no.3.

Queue more moaning about her OH. Why have another? Why? You can’t cope with the life you have.

Of course you’re expected to offer ‘hugs’ and sympathy rather than anything constructive. 🙄

@RagzRebooted
I found your post really inspiring Thankyou . I had 4 children on benefits . Then I found out I was pregnant and heartbreakingly decided to terminate because I wanted a better future for me and my kids .(and the dad made it clear he didn’t want it) I wanted to find a job and not just be that single mum on benefits all my life to 5 kids . I found being a single mum really hard tbh and the thought of working as well seemed to much for me . So yes I haven’t found a job yet as I’ve been suffering very bad depression due to my past and the abortion. But reading your post has given me abit of hope now that it can be done. I think the most important thing is a good job as being stuck at home with kids on benefits isn’t a good life for anyone .

@Lonleygal thank you. You can definitely do the same and it will happen eventually, just may take more time. I don't know how old your DCs are, but they don't stay small and dependent forever. Mine are teenagers and I've only in the last 3 years qualified and started properly working.
You can start small. I went to work really part time when youngest was in preschool, after not working for 7 years. It actually did a lot for my mood and self esteem, even though it was only a few bank shifts a week in a care home.
You don't have to go from where you are now to working full time, unless it really isn't financially viable. You only need to work 16 hours a week to be better off financially than you are now, with most benefits. You'd still be taking steps towards independence.

A friend on my fb who I know quite well has 4 kids as a single parent plus 2 dogs. She has now met her 3rd partner of 6 months and is pregnant again. She started her own business recently and was taking on new clients as I follow her business page and I was extremely happy for her for finally breaking the cycle. But then she announces her 5th pregnancy and is saying she is taking a break from her business due to a difficult pregnancy and how the 5th baby finally completes her family.

I don't understand why she wasn't ever complete with the first 4 and why whenever a new man comes along, you fall pregnant and somehow you have the urge to make a baby to complete your family every time you meet a new fella especially when the new fella has never been there for his other children!Then this 3rd man will piss off like the other 2 deadbeat ex partners she has had and then she will meet another man "to complete" her family and have the 6th child. It's a vicious cycle.

I really don't know but some people honestly don't know anything other than living in chaos and somehow think that's a normal way to live.

Women need to rethink the ‘need a man/another baby to complete their life/family’ What do most of the losers out there bring to the table, certainly not food or money from many of the posts on here.

People should stop being foolish in the choices they make. I know talk is cheap but honestly if you have your own home, business or job, a living child why risk it all for some muggy bloke.

Loving not living

@marbleeyes

A friend on my fb who I know quite well has 4 kids as a single parent plus 2 dogs. She has now met her 3rd partner of 6 months and is pregnant again. She started her own business recently and was taking on new clients as I follow her business page and I was extremely happy for her for finally breaking the cycle. But then she announces her 5th pregnancy and is saying she is taking a break from her business due to a difficult pregnancy and how the 5th baby finally completes her family.

I don't understand why she wasn't ever complete with the first 4 and why whenever a new man comes along, you fall pregnant and somehow you have the urge to make a baby to complete your family every time you meet a new fella especially when the new fella has never been there for his other children!Then this 3rd man will piss off like the other 2 deadbeat ex partners she has had and then she will meet another man "to complete" her family and have the 6th child. It's a vicious cycle.

I really don't know but some people honestly don't know anything other than living in chaos and somehow think that's a normal way to live.

Also, does she not know about the climate change emergency, and the overpopulation problem? I say that without judgement. Just a genuine question. The climate emergency informs so much of many people's decisions now. There are people doing their best not to have too many baths, let alone too many new humans! That said, I obviously wish her, and especially her children, well. Let's hope she does indeed decide her family is complete! It must be frustrating for you to witness

@Malibuismysecrethome

Women need to rethink the ‘need a man/another baby to complete their life/family’ What do most of the losers out there bring to the table, certainly not food or money from many of the posts on here. People should stop being foolish in the choices they make. I know talk is cheap but honestly if you have your own home, business or job, a living child why risk it all for some muggy bloke.

I agree with this but I think this mindset often kicks in after the baby (babies) are born.

I'm 52 now, have my own job, house, savings, pension but I'm a single parent to two teenagers and that responsibility will be ongoing for another 6 -7 years minimum

I do wish that when I was 30 something and pondering motherhood and what my life would mean with it/without it that there'd been some wisdom from somewhere to let me know that I could have found fulfilment elsewhere, that although I may not have known how I would have found peace with it. I didn't know that you could have faith in yourself to construct a life that had meaning for you. I didn't know that you could tune out others' expectations. All I saw everywhere was 'winners' getting married and all I felt coming my way was PITY that I wasn't one of the winners. My brother is a bit anti-social so I had the extra pressure of knowing that if my parents were to become grandparents, it was all down to me. With all of that milling around in my head I went ahead and had two children with a controlling man who projected on to me that I wasn't good enough.

As soon as you have children you get it. As soon as you have all of that responsibility I think the scales fall from your eyes and you think, wow, I could have carved out a life that suited me, I could have tuned out other people's pity and expectations. All of these perfect families I see everywhere, that's just a phase in my life (age-related) and it will pass.

Now I can see the direction I could have taken my life, but when I was staring down the barrel of MOTHERHOOD NOW OR NEVER it didn't seem so clear to me.

You have to be really fucking smart and self-aware to hack biology. Having children is the one thing you can't sort out later. It was like a panic buy.

I love them of course. But just wondering how we can get young single or unmarried women who have 5 weddings to go to in one year to not feel that like a club they're excluded from.

Women are told they've a shelf life. Men your own age won't marry you after hmmm, not sure but married life remains an option for men for so much longer.

I think biology explains why women panic buy and end up with a shit man.

We could counter that but the information and the reassurance that everything will be OK either way just isn't really there. Not as a loud voice.

Yesterday actually, I said to my DD, I've no expectations that I be a grandmother! She said ''I know, I wouldn't do it for you!'' and she seemed taken aback that I spelled that out, but I very much did feel that it was something I owed my mother. My family helped me financially when I was a single parent (still am a single parent) but they also judged me and pitied me! I've never said this to my parents, that I had children so as not to disappoint them more. I don't think that would improve my relationship with them, they would deny that, but it is true. Rightly or wrongly, that was how I felt back then.

I don't think that's a unique feeling and now with smaller families being the norm (I only had one brother) I think that that '''obligation'' to give parents grandchildren is another weight on 30 something women's shoulders

Media could do more to promote successful women who are able to combine parenting and professional roles AND as childless women who are very successful.
All we seem to see are the likes of Katie Price with her menagerie of different fathered kids and Kim Kardasian who rents wombs.

Yes, I would like to hear the stories of women who were on that now or never precipice and then didn't take the leap, carried on with their life and then how they found fulfilment elsewhere and how their life is now.
I guess the media doesn't like the story of forty something woman without a husband or children happier than she's ever been since she created/discovered/produced/researched..........x,y&z