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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that Kier Starmer is spineless?

360 replies

LittleWhingingWoman · 29/03/2022 19:06

I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer

OP posts:
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 30/03/2022 19:05

www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Transsexuality-Among-Twins%3A-Identity-Concordance%2C-Diamond/6f1bf4e467577434ede5a4f588dda9e41d86322e

I tried to look at this as genuinely interested to find out more. I don't have access though so couldn't. It's published in the international journal of transgenderism which seems a possibly highly biased publication. The abstract suggested a reliance on people's reports of their upbringing which is always scientifically dubious. It was not clear how such a small sample of non-transitioned twins could evidence any genetic contribution but as I said, I could not access it.

For me, this is interesting but it is also a distraction from the Starmer debacle. Even if we had robust proof that a) gender identity is commonplace and b) there is a genetic contribution to believing you are a different gender to your sex, this is NOT c) evidence that gender trumps sex in protected spaces because d) we have reams of evidence showing that women are disadvantaged because of their biology not their identity.

The conflation of sex and gender is the issue. It is no problem at all for people to be trans'gender'. The problem is when this is assumed to be trans'sex'.

It makes no jot of difference what your identity is, men should not be in female spaces.

Crcohetmonster · 30/03/2022 20:15

I’m confused. If no one can define woman, how do we know transwomen are women?

Charley50 · 30/03/2022 20:52

@Crcohetmonster

I’m confused. If no one can define woman, how do we know transwomen are women?
Exactly!
Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/03/2022 21:05

Transwomen should not enter female spaces as they are male.

There is no evidence that gender is being expressed based on likeness. Transwomen are assuming what women feel like and believe and then imitating it. I have nothing more in common with a transwoman than a man. It's not helpful to pretend otherwise.

This.

nolongersurprised · 30/03/2022 21:41

Personally I think it’s a huge reach to use actual DSDs to explain transgenderism.

In classical CAH XX individuals lack an enzyme pathway that allows normal production of the steroid hormone, cortisol. The precursors get shunted down an alternative pathway resulting in high levels of androgens. The female fetus is awash with androgens.

Female infants are born virilised, along with other potential health issues (salt wasting and cortisol deficient). It’s a medical emergency, given the immediate metabolic consequences with cortisol deficiency leading to low sugars and the loss of sodium life-threatening.

Females with CAH are exposed to abnormally high levels of androgens in utero, because of a problem. There is no evidence that trans people who do not have DSDs are exposed to high levels of the opposite sex hormones in utero. It’s an appropriation (again) of DSDs.

Individuals with 5 alpha reductase deficiency (like caster Semenya) are male. They lack an enzyme that enables a form of testosterone. They often look female with a vulva. They don’t have a uterus or ovaries and have internal testes.

At puberty their internal testes produces androgens and they go through a male puberty. They have male levels of testosterone.

If some individuals then identify as men, this isn’t transgenderism, this is biology. They are men.

And, as an aside, individuals with DSDs have asked to not be brought into this debate, yet here we go again.

nolongersurprised · 30/03/2022 22:08

Should have said that individuals with 5 alpha reductase deficiency after look female at birth. They don’t after their male puberty, where they androgenise.

nolongersurprised · 30/03/2022 23:02

I’m going to add as well that’s it’s fucking disgusting to use “well, CAH” as an explanation for healthy people deciding they want to “be” the opposite sex.

Classic, salt-wasting CAH is life threatening before it’s identified. There will be life-long medication and the risk of cardiovascular collapse at times of stress. Hormone levels will normalise with treatment but the genital changes are permanent.

For a healthy trans individual, without this disorder, to cherry pick some aspects of it, wildly speculate and overreach and say, “yeah, me too” is abhorrent

Mummyoflittledragon · 31/03/2022 05:19

@DrSbaitso

Time was, if a man entered a female space, women would be presumed to have authority in that space and there'd be strength in their justified and supported order to him to leave or even try to force him our if necessary. Now he can enter, and he is presumed to have the authority and moral righteousness, and women will be castigated if they say no. And that's on the power of cultural allowance alone, because legally, they've still got the right to boot him.
This is so true. The first public conveniences designed for women were at the great exhibition of 1851. Before that they were for the convenience of men. We forget history so very quickly.
lifeturnsonadime · 31/03/2022 09:50

@nolongersurprised

I’m going to add as well that’s it’s fucking disgusting to use “well, CAH” as an explanation for healthy people deciding they want to “be” the opposite sex.

Classic, salt-wasting CAH is life threatening before it’s identified. There will be life-long medication and the risk of cardiovascular collapse at times of stress. Hormone levels will normalise with treatment but the genital changes are permanent.

For a healthy trans individual, without this disorder, to cherry pick some aspects of it, wildly speculate and overreach and say, “yeah, me too” is abhorrent

I totally agree.

More appropriation.

Lilifer · 31/03/2022 09:56

[quote LittleWhingingWoman]I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer[/quote]
Is this actually true? Can u link please?
I agree with you - this is becoming a sick joke

NotBadConsidering · 31/03/2022 10:30

@nolongersurprised

I’m going to add as well that’s it’s fucking disgusting to use “well, CAH” as an explanation for healthy people deciding they want to “be” the opposite sex.

Classic, salt-wasting CAH is life threatening before it’s identified. There will be life-long medication and the risk of cardiovascular collapse at times of stress. Hormone levels will normalise with treatment but the genital changes are permanent.

For a healthy trans individual, without this disorder, to cherry pick some aspects of it, wildly speculate and overreach and say, “yeah, me too” is abhorrent

Agree, it’s disgusting.

There have also been studies on trans people looking for variations in sexual development which have unearthed exactly nothing.

The whole argument that “trans is biological” is based on the possibility that there is a biological marker waiting to be discovered that will settle this once and for all. It’s pie in the sky stuff.

But let’s for one second imagine it to be true. I for one would welcome it! Let’s get a blood test sorted. Then let’s get all the people who say “I am trans/a woman/non binary because I say I am” and get them all to take the test. Will be fascinating to see the results.

I vote we test all the middle aged male AGPs first, see where that gets us Hmm. Let’s see what Stonewall’s trans umbrella looks like once we have a confirmatory test to see who falls under it. Will the cross dressers pass the test? How exciting to find out! Let’s watch the whole movement destroy itself while it argues who is “true trans” (like they do already anyway but with something to actually go on).

Let’s get a test in place for children to determine whose bodies should be rendered sterile and asexual by puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, rather than just their expressed feelings at the age of 12 or their adherence to diagnostic criteria that demand a belief in sex stereotypes to get a diagnosis.

Let’s study if the marker is positive and then negative years later in the thousands of detransitioners who regret their decisions and the damage done to their bodies.

Let’s see if the marker is “half” positive in people who feel “non-binary”.

We will still continue to keep spaces segregated by sex, not “newly discovered invisible marker of transness” of course, because a marker in blood that explains an “identity” doesn’t remove the male body, effects of testosterone, male socialisation, and male rates of offending.

But it would be fascinating to watch the fall out 👀 🍿

However, given that this is science fiction, let’s not waste energy on it. Let’s not make any changes to society until such marker is discovered, then we can have a debate about it. Let’s pay attention to the perfectly good markers we have now that determines our sex, which are evident to everyone. Let’s absolutely not start making changes to society on the basis that some people think vaguely that transgender might be biological that might become evident in the future so ergo we should mess everything up now in anticipation of that, because that’s just nuts.

When you’ve got something to actually go on, then we can talk Hmm.

Swayingpalmtrees · 31/03/2022 10:59

Tony Blair has waded in now telling the LP that they need to get clarity on this issue immediately.

Rachel Reeves on R4 at 8am this morning when asked if she knew what a woman was, she said 'most women share biological similarities. Some 'people' are born in the wrong bodies and may not have the same biological similarities' she did to her credit offer to detail those similarities should any of us not know that women have breasts and vaginas et al.
Michelle declined to obtain a list but there does appear to be a softening, a change in tone after the Keir car crash. I think we are starting to see a rowing back - a slight detection and chink of light.

It is hard to believe in 2022 we are even having this conversation. Even in repressed states like Saudi, they are allowed to be called women and have private areas to use the loo and change. It is quite unreal that we are here at all.

spacehardware · 31/03/2022 11:01

Seriously can you imagine Tony Blair making such a bollocks of things as the current shower

Swayingpalmtrees · 31/03/2022 11:15

The subject needs sensitivity and integrity, seemingly beyond the current LP at the moment.

DrSbaitso · 31/03/2022 11:17

I think most people aren't well informed on the issue. They see it's red hot and, understandably, try to stay away from it. We probably needed some absolute absurdities to gain traction so people could see exactly what the end game of this is, and that it's a lot more serious than just respecting preferred pronouns.

Alcoh · 31/03/2022 11:21

Emily Bridges competing against our national treasure Dame Laura Kenny was obviously too much to handle. A few more like that will do the trick.

SleeplessInEngland · 31/03/2022 11:23

Labour definitely need a firm line on this, whatever it is. I doubt Starmer could give less of shit about the issue, but it's going to be a constant gotcha question for him now.

Rainbowshit · 31/03/2022 11:27

@Crcohetmonster

I’m confused. If no one can define woman, how do we know transwomen are women?
Well quite. Labour seem unable to define what a woman is but they seem absolutely certain that a transwoman is a woman.

This whole ideology is just full of such inconsistencies.

Rainbowshit · 31/03/2022 11:28

These questions to Labour MPs are so revealing. Being unable to answer shows they will put ideology before reality. That's not what I want in a politician, I want laws to be made based on material reality, not what they would like reality to be.

scorpiogirly · 31/03/2022 11:29

He is a disgusting man and should not be in any position of power.

TheKeatingFive · 31/03/2022 11:37

Someone up thread nailed it when they said the issue is conflation of sex and gender.

The idea of having an innate (rather than socially constructed) gender identity is nonsense to me. But there's nothing inherently problematic about it for society so long as we're clear where it's important to classify according to sex rather than gender.

So spaces, sports, quotas - these remain sex classified. A transgender person has no more rights to these than anyone else of the opposite sex.

Pronouns, clothing, lifestyle, etc can be the sphere where gender identity has a prominent role to play.

SleeplessInEngland · 31/03/2022 11:41

"He is a disgusting man and should not be in any position of power."

But enough about boris.

Swayingpalmtrees · 31/03/2022 11:52

It makes sense to me thekeating but transwomen are unlikely to agree with that division and will insist on being treated like a 'real' woman even if that puts children and women at risk in a huge way.
But they are going to have to compromise with unisex I am afraid.

I think we have to be stronger as society. No it is not okay for you to put thousands, perhaps millions of women and girls at risk because you want full access. End of. It is the pussy footing around that is creating uncertainty. Safety comes first it should not even have got to this.

DrSbaitso · 31/03/2022 11:56

Someone up thread nailed it when they said the issue is conflation of sex and gender.

Exactly what JKR has been saying from the off.

And exactly why TRAs spend so much time being offensive, misleading and exploitative of people with DSDs. To try to "prove" that sex isn't a thing. While at the same time claiming that gender identity is, more so than something with hard, physical, scientific fact about it. And now, weirdly, are trying to find a biological proof for gender identity which, if ever found, must be held up as gospel while the far more overwhelming proof of sex is made out to be nothing significant.

And that's why a third, open space for people who for whatever reason do not wish to use the correct single sex one, is never enough. Sex must be absorbed, Borg like, into the concept of gender identity.

TheKeatingFive · 31/03/2022 11:59

I think we have to be stronger as society. No it is not okay for you to put thousands, perhaps millions of women and girls at risk because you want full access. End of.

Exactly. They need to be told no.

We can't just pretend it's possible to change sex or make out that it doesn't matter. There is ample evidence already of the problems this causes (also, facts of biology).

If they don't want to be in men's sex defined spaces, they need to campaign for their own. I'd be supportive of that - not making women's sex defined spaces less safe for women.

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