To think that Kier Starmer is spineless?

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer

@TheKeatingFive

I listed the factors

Where? Where did you specify what the cultural, environmental and biological factors are.

It would be a list. What's so difficult about that?

Just keep saying the same thing again and again and maybe it will mean something different eventually I suppose !

Examples are in the links in case studies done by professionals where they can be much better explained by them than I can do justice.

@DrSbaitso

I listed the factors and the cases that explained the factors

Did you?

Yes

So does this mean that 39% of identical twins experience gender identity disorder? And almost no fraternal ones?

Just keep saying the same thing again and again and maybe it will mean something different eventually I suppose

That's exactly my thoughts on your posts.

What are the factors? Where have you specified them? That's all I'm asking.

Thing is, I would be really interested in a proper definition of gender that would help me understand people's position on this. If you want a serious conversation, then stop all this mucking around and just state it. You give an aura of understanding it very well, so I'm asking you to share that. What specifically are those biological, cultural and environmental factors you are talking about?

The links to scientific papers about tangentially related things are not conveying to me what I want to know - and if you want to actually engage with people, you will need to clarify for us, not just post links.

@DrSbaitso

So does this mean that 39% of identical twins experience gender identity disorder? And almost no fraternal ones?

No ... because a case study isn't representative of all twins is it?

No ... because a case study isn't representative of all twins is it?

Then why is it representative of gender identity occurrence?

@DrSbaitso

No ... because a case study isn't representative of all twins is it?

Then why is it representative of gender identity occurrence?

It isn't, it is just a case study alongside other case studies on this same matter that help to support the concept that gender identity is not just psychological as it can also be biological?

Can we have three cheers for Wes Streeting please? He's a star

Why what's he done?

@spacehardware

Why what's he done?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/wes-streeting-trans-rights-women-penis-b2047117.html?amp

Well thank christ someone in the labour party understands basic biology

Hurrah for him. Next Labour leader please

It wasn't hard was it to give a straight answer with a gender rider. Why is everyone else so scared/clearly not being honest?

I heard Wes on Talk Radio this morning.

JHB was suitably shocked she got a straight answer from a labour MP - it was pretty funny

twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1509088010771570688

No awkward questions from LBC on this to Javid

Sajid Javid gave his opinion last year -

Sajid Javid has accused Sir Keir Starmer of a “total denial of scientific fact” after the Labour leader entered the debate over transgender rights.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-is-denying-scientific-fact-in-trans-row-dwm68nn8s

Yes he is spineless. He doesn't seem to say a word about anything, near enough supports the government on everything. Silent on brexit, when his policy lost JC the election imo. Gone back on all his pre election pledges, doesn't stick up for the poor and disabled enough, big keen on his foreign policy.

@TheKeatingFive

Just keep saying the same thing again and again and maybe it will mean something different eventually I suppose

That's exactly my thoughts on your posts.

What are the factors? Where have you specified them? That's all I'm asking.

Thing is, I would be really interested in a proper definition of gender that would help me understand people's position on this. If you want a serious conversation, then stop all this mucking around and just state it. You give an aura of understanding it very well, so I'm asking you to share that. What specifically are those biological, cultural and environmental factors you are talking about?

The links to scientific papers about tangentially related things are not conveying to me what I want to know - and if you want to actually engage with people, you will need to clarify for us, not just post links.

TBH I am no expert on the factors that influence gender identity, but I have learned a lot from the various studies that I have read up on, so I thought that those same studies may also help you.

Here are some biological factor studies ;

• A study of adult women with classical 21-hydroxylase deficiency demonstrated a relationship between severity of disease and gender identity outcome. Of 42 patients, 7.1% either had gender dysphoria or had changed gender to male; no gender dysphoria was seen in less severely affected individuals.

• Most 46,XX patients with CAH appear to have a female gender identity. However, the finding that 5.2–11.6% of such patients have gender dysphoria, an atypical gender identity, or are transgender would appear to be much more common than expected based on the reported prevalence of FTM transsexualism, implying that there is some role for prenatal/postnatal androgens in gender identity outcome

• in 5α-reductase-2 deficiency among 46 XY individuals raised female, a gender role change from female to male (typically after puberty) was reported in 56–63% of the patients (26). Gender role changes from female to male were also reported in 39–64% of 46,XY individuals raised female with 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency

-39.1% concordance for GID (based on DSM-IV criteria) in 23 monozygotic female and male twin pairs, with no concordance in 21 same-sex dizygotic female and male twin pairs or in seven opposite-sex twin pairs

-Recent studies have supported the concept that there may also be “gender-dimorphic” brain structures, which segregate not according to physical sex but rather according to gender identity (41, 43). The BSTc, known to be larger in men than in women (independent of sexual orientation), had a female appearance in a group of MTF individuals

There are a lot more ..

Here are some biological factor studies

But that doesn't answer what the factors actually are.

For reasonably intelligent people without a degree in science.

Give us a list of the biological factors that influence gender. And how they do.

Am I being thick here, does everyone else get a clear definition from what's being posted here?

Same for environmental/cultural. I don't think any of your links mention those.

No-one has any idea why gender dysphoria exists for sure, obviously there are multiple factors that will influence it, but no-one knows the weighting or exactly which factors play a role

Those studies posted are literally the tip of the iceberg and do not offer anywhere near a sufficient explanation. IMO.

YANBU because his spinelessness also makes him a liar.

He is a very intelligent, skilled QC. He was respected for his clinical approach, dissection of argument, for drilling clarity of answers. Getting witnesses to state an unambiguous Yes or No to a question.

His inability to give a straight yes or no to a simple question now, him turning to vague and rambling answers that obfuscate is not because he does not know the answer or what he believes. It is because he is too scared of minority activist backlash, and what it might mean for his position as Labour leader.

So he lies. Tells untruths. Throws women under the bus to save himself.

He doesn't believe what he is saying, because like all people with a brain he knows its ridiculous bullshit. But he says it anyway.

He is, as you say, totally spineless.

I mean, if we were to try to determine someone's gender, without referring to how they feel or how their behaviour/presentation compares to cultural stereotypes, how would we do it?

JHB was suitably shocked she got a straight answer from a labour MP - it was pretty funny

It was funny - that's where I just saw it on twitter. The issue for me is one of honesty and being geniune - if he is but at least he gave a straight answer. So many of our politicians just can't answer a question or have a proper dialogue/debate any more.

Agree with @fluffymule - much better articulated!

He doesn't believe what he is saying, because like all people with a brain he knows its ridiculous bullshit. But he says it anyway.

I completely agree and that's why I'm so disappointed. He's lying and he knows we know he's lying but he doesn't care.

@TheKeatingFive

I mean, if we were to try to determine someone's gender, without referring to how they feel or how their behaviour/presentation compares to cultural stereotypes, how would we do it?

If something is this vague, you have to wonder what the value is in referring to it at all.