To think that Kier Starmer is spineless?

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer

Starmer is an absolute total disappointment in all aspects.

I used to be a member of the LP but feel embarrassed about that now.

It is not just on women and trans issues, he offers nothing of a vision in any aspect of life. Not one issue you could pin to him and understand some sort of vision. The only people he is appealing to is the mentally ill trans people.

[quote Lamerexo]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

in what context is gender actually that relevant?
I think it is relevant in that it allows people to express themselves how they choose, form communities based on likeness, etc - your gender can be transwoman or transman but you will always remain your biological 'sex'.

Female-segregated spaces are all based on sex not gender.
I agree with this. Female is a biological 'woman' as per se, so it is only right to have segregated spaces away from the male sex. But then how is that enforced when trans people want to enter female segregated spaces?[/quote]
Transwomen should not enter female spaces as they are male.

There is no evidence that gender is being expressed based on likeness. Transwomen are assuming what women feel like and believe and then imitating it. I have nothing more in common with a transwoman than a man. It's not helpful to pretend otherwise. If people want to form an identity around 'likes wearing make-up and dresses' or 'kindness and compassion' than go ahead. That does not a woman make.

@Alexandra2001 but how can Keir Starmer protect women-only spaces when he can't define one accurately?
If, as in Keir Starmer's view, a woman is simultaneously understood to be an adult human female and a man whose gender identity is 'female', then how do you retain a space exclusively for adult human females?

@Alexandra2001

How can Boris, idiot that he is, be the only threat?
ANYONE who opposes safe spaces for women and children based on their sex and not mens imaginary gender identity is a threat to the safety of women and children.

Transwomen should not enter female spaces as they are male
But then how do you stop them? A lot of transgender women that 'pass', and then if you question them how do you get them to prove that they are or are not a woman? Although I do acknowledge that most of the time the problems are caused by fetishists, and not real 'transwomen'.

If people want to form an identity around 'likes wearing make-up and dresses' or 'kindness and compassion' than go ahead.
I don't think that it is as simple as this - gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors, not just wearing make-up and a dress.

@YouSetTheTone that’s precisely the problem, you can’t ensure those spaces. It’s Newspeak.

My MSPs say they will protect women only spaces. But also say that men can be women.

A lot of transgender women that 'pass'

I don't mean this unkindly, but in the vast, vast majority of cases, I don't think that's true

and then if you question them how do you get them to prove that they are or are not a woman?

How is this policed currently? If a male is in a female toilet or wants access to a female support group? The same would apply.

gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors, not just wearing make-up and a dress.

I've only ever seen it defined in terms of social/cultural stereotypes. Perhaps you'd have a crack at a definition.

Here is the email I sent to my local councillor. It was sent in a rush as I was angry (and at work) so excuse any bad grammar. I will update with any response but not holding my breath ….

Good morning,
I am a life long Labour voter and supporter but I am becoming increasingly concerned about Labours stance on the definition of woman and the erosion of woman’s rights to safe spaces and the effects that will have.
As a frequent user of Mumsnet, I have noticed this topic gets discussed a lot and many users including myself find that as the Labour Party can’t define what a woman is, we are unable to vote for them. I have attached a recent thread for your attention. I would urge you to please spend some time reading the Mumsnet boards so you can see yourself how many woman feel unable to vote Labour and feel politically homeless.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

@Battytwatty

Here is the email I sent to my local councillor. It was sent in a rush as I was angry (and at work) so excuse any bad grammar. I will update with any response but not holding my breath ….

Good morning,
I am a life long Labour voter and supporter but I am becoming increasingly concerned about Labours stance on the definition of woman and the erosion of woman’s rights to safe spaces and the effects that will have.
As a frequent user of Mumsnet, I have noticed this topic gets discussed a lot and many users including myself find that as the Labour Party can’t define what a woman is, we are unable to vote for them. I have attached a recent thread for your attention. I would urge you to please spend some time reading the Mumsnet boards so you can see yourself how many woman feel unable to vote Labour and feel politically homeless.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

Angela Rainer says that this shouldn't be discussed on social media in case it upsets transitions.

Even the women of the Labour Party are trying to shut us up about this.

(with the exception of the wonderful Rosie Duffield - I am amazed she hasn't deflected yet).

@bellinisurge thanks! I will have a look - the 'social' made me hope they weren't a looney party. Wish we had PR. Or that all the decent honest MPs with integrity across all parties would form a new party!

sorry that should have said 'upsets transitioners'.

Won't we think of the poor males!

But then how do you stop them?

Before it became culturally acceptable for them to come in, this was rarely a problem. There was a lot of expectation that they wouldn't try it, and the weight of the law and public feeling against them if they tried.

If you're going to flap about over what a woman is and whether single sex spaces are acceptable, and attack and victimise those who have an objection, then yes, it becomes harder. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was deliberate...

@TheKeatingFive

gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors, not just wearing make-up and a dress.

I've only ever seen it defined in terms of social/cultural stereotypes. Perhaps you'd have a crack at a definition.

My definition comes from the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism and it is also established in The Journal of Sexual Medicine

@DrSbaitso

But then how do you stop them?

Before it became culturally acceptable for them to come in, this was rarely a problem. There was a lot of expectation that they wouldn't try it, and the weight of the law and public feeling against them if they tried.

If you're going to flap about over what a woman is and whether single sex spaces are acceptable, and attack and victimise those who have an objection, then yes, it becomes harder. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was deliberate...

That is very true

Starmer stated in the LBC interview he wants to protect women only spaces,

The phrase he used was "safe spaces" which could be interpreted any number of ways. He also refused to answer a question about whether a woman can have a penis and thought it was for sporting bodies to decide whether transwomen should compete against women. What exactly would his idea of safe spaces for women look like and would women with penis's be permitted? I suspect his safe spaces for women would be like Labours women only shortlists, open to anyone who identifies as a woman. This is nothing like single sex spaces.

"And that's not picking on any individual at all, but I don't like intolerance, I like open discussion."

He also said this whilst standing by and doing bugger all to protect Rosie Duffield from bullying within the Labour party so we know the man is as much a lying misogynist as BJ. He did not condemn some Labour MP's calls to expel women from the LP for refusing to repeat TWAW. He wants open discussion with people who won't make him look a fool by disagreeing with him. And if I hear one more Labour MP claim we need more light and less heat on this issue I'll scream, it's just another way of telling women to stop making a fuss although I'm sure they think they sound clever and measured when they spout this crap.

He can fuck off to the furthest reaches of fuck off.

My definition comes from the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism and it is also established in The Journal of Sexual Medicine

Was that it though?

What you've already posted?

It wasn't very helpful in answering the question. What specifically are those biological/environmental/cultural factors? How do they interplay to determine gender?

I don't mind what someone's gender identity is. I don't use a women's toilet because of my gender identity. I use it because I have a female body.

@Kreuzberg

Surely a long time labour voter couldn't vote tory just on the basis of one issue ? The whole ideology is different. Why would you consciously vote in a party whose ideals you don't espouse ?

Because it’s a massive issue impacting half the population, the man doesn’t know if a woman has a penis. It’s not even yes they do or no they don’t. And he’s owning it. Apparently he can’t even say either way. How can anyone vote for that?

Has he checked his wife for a penis? maybe she can help him out with this.

I don't think that it is as simple as this - gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors, not just wearing make-up and a dress.

The word likely is doing more heavy lifting than Laurel Hubbard there.

@spacehardware quite!

"I don't think that it is as simple as this - gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological," - what precise and factual biological aspects are you talking about here? Are you talking about intersex people because most Transwomen are not intersex.)

"environmental," what does this mean exactly?

"cultural factors," you mean that men are told if they wear dresses they must be women rather than "Hey Jamie, it's ok for you to wear a dress, we accept you as the man you are." Or do you mean something else?

"not just wearing make-up and a dress." Well what is it then? What else makes these MEN magically women?

Are you talking about intersex people because most Transwomen are not intersex

Nobody is intersex. There is no such thing and it's why the difference of sexual development community asks for this term not to be used.

Everyone, but everyone, is male or female, however they identify. A very small number of people have a difference of development along their sexual development pathway, but all of these variations have to occur along the male or female ones. There's no third option. Each DSD is recognisable and diagnosable precisely because it has to occur in a male path or a female path.

There is no third gamete.

"Has he checked his wife for a penis? maybe she can help him out with this."

Wonder which of Sir and Lady Starmer impregnated the other to produce their children? Maybe they took turns? Who knows.