To think that Kier Starmer is spineless?

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer

@DrSbaitso

Are you talking about intersex people because most Transwomen are not intersex

Nobody is intersex. There is no such thing and it's why the difference of sexual development community asks for this term not to be used.

Everyone, but everyone, is male or female, however they identify. A very small number of people have a difference of development along their sexual development pathway, but all of these variations have to occur along the male or female ones. There's no third option. Each DSD is recognisable and diagnosable precisely because it has to occur in a male path or a female path.

There is no third gamete.

I hadn't realised the term wasn't being used anymore - you see it everywhere in Transactivist postings!

Thanks for the clarification!

I hadn't realised the term wasn't being used anymore - you see it everywhere in Transactivist postings!

That's because a key part of this movement is the exploitation of people with DSDs, despite the community having asked repeatedly not to be drawn into this because it's nothing to do with them and involves misguiding people about what it means to have a DSD. The TRAs who do this effectively use people with DSDs to "prove" that there's no such thing as sex and they aren't really male or female. Even if this were true, it would be irrelevant in the case of the overwhelming majority of people who don't have one, but as it happens, it's not true. People with a DSD are male or female.

@Lamerexo

Transwomen should not enter female spaces as they are male But then how do you stop them? A lot of transgender women that 'pass', and then if you question them how do you get them to prove that they are or are not a woman? Although I do acknowledge that most of the time the problems are caused by fetishists, and not real 'transwomen'.

If people want to form an identity around 'likes wearing make-up and dresses' or 'kindness and compassion' than go ahead.
I don't think that it is as simple as this - gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors, not just wearing make-up and a dress.

Societal norms and expectation stop a great deal of people from invading spaces they are not invited to. In some instances there will also be legal recourse. The fact that it is not possible to 100% stop anyone from entering spaces they are not welcome does not invalidate the aim.

There is no evidence for any biological factors impacting gender identity. There is no evidence for anything with relation to gender identity as there is no clear definition of it. MN has repeatedly asked for evidence to counter my assertion but it has never been forthcoming. If you have some, I would genuinely be interested to see it. In the meantime we have to treat your statement here as a fallacy and therefore base no legal rights on it.

@TheKeatingFive

My definition comes from the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism and it is also established in The Journal of Sexual Medicine

Was that it though?

What you've already posted?

It wasn't very helpful in answering the question. What specifically are those biological/environmental/cultural factors? How do they interplay to determine gender?

All I did was define gender identity, if you want to learn about the various studies into gender identity and causation I will list a few links below :

www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Transsexuality-Among-Twins%3A-Identity-Concordance%2C-Diamond/6f1bf4e467577434ede5a4f588dda9e41d86322e

academic.oup.com/jcem/article/99/12/4379/2833862

Time was, if a man entered a female space, women would be presumed to have authority in that space and there'd be strength in their justified and supported order to him to leave or even try to force him our if necessary. Now he can enter, and he is presumed to have the authority and moral righteousness, and women will be castigated if they say no. And that's on the power of cultural allowance alone, because legally, they've still got the right to boot him.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
Societal norms and expectation stop a great deal of people from invading spaces they are not invited to. In some instances there will also be legal recourse. The fact that it is not possible to 100% stop anyone from entering spaces they are not welcome does not invalidate the aim.

That is very true, I was just asking a hypothetical question rather than trying to invalidate the aim as a whole as I do agree with it.

. There is no evidence for anything with relation to gender identity as there is no clear definition of it.
If you look at what I have linked (hopefully if it has sent), the gender identity case report in twins concluded that of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same‐sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P = 0.005), suggesting a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.

All I did was define gender identity

No you didn't.

You posted a few words that may or may not be a starting point.

We've asked you to specify what the cultural, biological and environmental factors are and how they interplay to determine gender identity.

If they're in the links, please alert us to that answer yourself.

'Here's a few links in lieu of explaining my position' doesn't not make for convincing argument.

@DrSbaitso

I hadn't realised the term wasn't being used anymore - you see it everywhere in Transactivist postings!

That's because a key part of this movement is the exploitation of people with DSDs, despite the community having asked repeatedly not to be drawn into this because it's nothing to do with them and involves misguiding people about what it means to have a DSD. The TRAs who do this effectively use people with DSDs to "prove" that there's no such thing as sex and they aren't really male or female. Even if this were true, it would be irrelevant in the case of the overwhelming majority of people who don't have one, but as it happens, it's not true. People with a DSD are male or female.

Thank you so much for this clarification!

@LittleWhingingWoman

"I don't think that it is as simple as this - gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological," - what precise and factual biological aspects are you talking about here? Are you talking about intersex people because most Transwomen are not intersex.)

"environmental," what does this mean exactly?

"cultural factors," you mean that men are told if they wear dresses they must be women rather than "Hey Jamie, it's ok for you to wear a dress, we accept you as the man you are." Or do you mean something else?

"not just wearing make-up and a dress." Well what is it then? What else makes these MEN magically women?

Rather than making assumptions of what a definition of gender identity means, maybe actually look into it before you badly attempt to twist it around?

the gender identity case report in twins concluded that of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same‐sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P = 0.005), suggesting a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.

You're going to have to explain that in plain English

maybe actually look into it before you badly attempt to twist it around?

We're all waiting for an actual definition from you?

Not links, a definition

@TheKeatingFive

All I did was define gender identity

No you didn't.

You posted a few words that may or may not be a starting point.

We've asked you to specify what the cultural, biological and environmental factors are and how they interplay to determine gender identity.

If they're in the links, please alert us to that answer yourself.

'Here's a few links in lieu of explaining my position' doesn't not make for convincing argument.

You ask what specifically the biological / environmental etc. factors are, but when presented with links to explain it you suddenly are uninterested?

We've asked you to specify what the cultural, biological and environmental factors are and how they interplay to determine gender identity.
It is impossible to fit all of the cases, studies etc. into one Mumsnet reply. I have provided links as you asked for specification, which are already shortened down to the cases and their studies, although you clearly have no actual interest into learning more about this as much as you care about arguing endlessly.

'Here's a few links in lieu of explaining my position' doesn't not make for convincing argument.
The links aid the definition that I provided, it is not 'en lieu' of it as it is an addition which you asked for.

@TheKeatingFive

maybe actually look into it before you badly attempt to twist it around?

We're all waiting for an actual definition from you?

Not links, a definition

A definition of what? I said that gender identity likely reflects genetic and biological, environmental, and cultural factors and provided links with case studies that provide the reasoning as to why this conclusion has been drawn, but you do not want to see it.

I said that gender identity likely reflects genetic and biological, environmental, and cultural factors

And I asked what those were and how they interlinked?

If you understand as well as you're making out, that doesn't strike me as a difficult question.

@TheKeatingFive

the gender identity case report in twins concluded that of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same‐sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P = 0.005), suggesting a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.

You're going to have to explain that in plain English

monozygotic - identical GID - gender identity disorder dizygotic - non-identical

A definition of what?

Gender identity. Are you claiming to have offered a definition for something while not knowing what you were supposed to be defining?

I said that gender identity likely reflects genetic and biological, environmental, and cultural factors and provided links with case studies that provide the reasoning as to why this conclusion has been drawn, but you do not want to see it.

What conclusion? What are we talking about?

I couldn't understand the excerpt quoted by TheKeatingFive either. I'm not familiar with the terms. It may be that gender identity is indeed too complex to be explained in layman's terms, but if so, I don't think we should be creating legislation around it and encouraging people to self-proclaim their own while everyone else adapts to it. Can you explain it in a way a reasonably intelligent, albeit non-expert, person can understand?

monozygotic - identical
GID - gender identity disorder
dizygotic - non-identical

I'm none the wiser, sorry.

I'd just really like you to specify the factors. That would help me understand.

Ok. So there was a case where 23 pairs of identical twins were studied and 39% had gender identity disorder. 21 pairs of same-sex fraternal twins were studied and none had gender identity disorder. Is that it?

That seems to suggest that whatever causes it isn't genetic, since identical twins share the same genes. Might it have something to do with an identical twin having a strong motivation to differentiate themselves from the genetically identical person?

Still need a definition of gender to understand this properly.

@DrSbaitso

Ok. So there was a case where 23 pairs of identical twins were studied and 39% had gender identity disorder. 21 pairs of same-sex fraternal twins were studied and none had gender identity disorder. Is that it?

That seems to suggest that whatever causes it isn't genetic, since identical twins share the same genes. Might it have something to do with an identical twin having a strong motivation to differentiate themselves from the genetically identical person?

Still need a definition of gender to understand this properly.

Of 23 identical (male and female), 39.1% concordant for GID. but none of the 21 same‐sex non-identical male and female twins were concordant for GID, which suggests that genetic factors plays a role.

@TotalRhubarb - yes of course the electorate should know. But I don't think being hustled into it by rent a quote Ferrari is the right environment. It needs nuance & balance.

@TheKeatingFive

monozygotic - identical GID - gender identity disorder dizygotic - non-identical

I'm none the wiser, sorry.

I'd just really like you to specify the factors. That would help me understand.

I listed the factors and the cases that explained the factors, which can do it far better justice than I can in a Mumsnet reply. If you really want to educate yourself and understand more like you act you do, I would encourage you to actually read it.

@spacehardware

"Does he want to be Prime Minister or not?"

I legit don't think he does no

Of course he does

I listed the factors

Where? Where did you specify what the cultural, environmental and biological factors are.

It would be a list. What's so difficult about that?

Of 23 identical (male and female), 39.1% concordant for GID. but none of the 21 same‐sex non-identical male and female twins were concordant for GID, which suggests that genetic factors plays a role.

I don't follow. If genetic factors play a role, why was there a relatively high concordance in the people who share identical genes? You mean both twins in those sets had gender identity disorder? I was taking it to mean individuals.

I listed the factors and the cases that explained the factors

Did you?