I know that mumsnetters are very concerned and horrified about the war in Ukraine.

[BookkeeperBobby]

AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown

The people voting YABU may I ask why? There is an entire world of nuance in this conflict that is not close to being captured by Lyce Doucet intoning on the BBC night after night and Morrisons vowing to never again stock vodka. I think the perspectives of ordinary Russians caught up in it having had a close eye view on Russian politics during the years in which our PM sold London to Putin... may be helpful.

It's important to distinguish the actions of a state from its people. In any country there are people who disagree with the government. In a democracy they should be able to say that freely. Russia is not a democracy and blaming all Russians is unfair.
Western governments are acting against the Russian state.

Agree. And actually in Russia there are many many people who disagree with the government. Over the past twenty years they have been gassed, killed, beaten up and disappeared by their government while our government took Russian state and oligarch money into London with open arms. You would not know that to look at the news in the UK now though. All it says on there is that Russia is wrong and Russians are brainwashed and everyone in the UK needs to boycott every single little thing associated with Russia even vodka that has never been anywhere near Russia.

Hasn't this been posted about already? It seems very familiar.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make? What are
Your concerns?

Has it? I dunno, apologies if so, I'm not on here all the time. Last I saw mumsnetters were talking about how to reach people in Russia and tell them about the error of their ways and how wrong their government is. Ime pretty much every Russian person has a clear eyed view of their government. Our own pm and his cabinet here in the UK, not so much.

@Bizawit lol you are right my concerns are diffuse. I am alarmed by general anti Russian sentiment, frustrated by a narrative of brainwashed Russians and appalled at oligarch in chief of Ukraine Zelenskiy being held up as a standard of freedom.

I know these are big things and we can't do much about them. But I'm sharing this piece which I think is thoughtfully written in the hope that ordinary people on the other side of a divide created by people with vast amounts of wealth might see some common ground.

Like Ghandi really! 🤣

Putin bad. West good.

Yanbu op. I feel that there is a feeling of "evil Russians " that ignores that Russia isn't a democracy and the people aren't backing the choices of their government. They are in a dictatorship, a dangerous one, and they aren't the enemy. I'd extend that to the Russian soldiers- they are fodder to their own leaders, who care nothing for them but to brainwash/ strong arm men into service. The soldiers sent to kill who return will be traumatised, many will die and the Russian government have refused to even collect their bodies. They aren't evil. They are boys with little or no choice and their underrating skewed by propaganda and hate.

Of course I back Ukrainian forces, I want Ukraine to survive and putin is a war criminal. There is no excuse and blood is on Russian hands. But my sympathy is broader than seems allowed.

Apart from when he increases property prices lol.

@kittenkipping thank you! Have you seen the footage of Russian soldiers on the news? They are not all there. I don't know what's up with them, drugged or what, but they're not functioning properly. Russia has form for that ofc. Every war Russia wins including WWII (sorry to the UK patriots but it was Russia that won it) they win by churning line after line of boys to die until the enemy can't do any more. The Russian state treats its people most cruelly. And of course Russians know this. Of course they do. You would have to be a fool or a moron to think otherwise and Russians are neither. They know.

My grandmother left a Baltic country during the war and was rescued from a camp by the British and that is how she came to the UK. Once her country was taken by Russia she never saw her mother or othrr family again, they were behind the iron curtain. The Russians treated her country badly, people were removed and replaced by Russians. In Ukraine Stalin starved the country, millions died, a modern day Ireland effectively. Millions of Ukrainians died as a result and Russians were moved in. It was part of the Russiafication where Russia tried to stamp out their identities, culture and language and replace with Russian.

Putin is of that mindset, he is imperialist, he wants the USSR back, the Russian state is cruel, I support action against it. The Russian state is responsible for the impact of its foreign policy upon its own people.

Ps no issue with Russian people, but no one can force Russia to amend internal policy, we can however deny to cooperate with Russia when it is actively invading a country.

Yes it is v like Ireland which makes all the bellyaching about it from our government worse. Zelenskiy has been quite content for his little band of neo Nazis to wreak absolute havoc on the border really up to all sorts displacing and killing and torturing it has been really bad for eight years. And you can argue that Russians shouldn't have been there but would you likewise argue that English shouldn't have been in the six counties. See it is not so straightforward.

OP's agenda pretty clear now.

It is very hard. Russians are like everyone else. Good and bad. Russian politics, lots of Russian culture is great (ballet, love if the out doors, writers, music, etc)lots of it is terrible (hard-line homophobic, nationalistic, xenophobic, racist, awful rape culture, no freedom of speech, no free press, domestic violence). Unlike Germany who did a huge amount of reflection on their terrible past Russia failed to admit for decades that they murdered 20 Million people during WWII. They have never repented for it. They also murdered thousands of people during the Soviet era including 3 of my close family members. The made millions of people live through decades of ruling by fear. This doesn't mean Russians are bad. My next door neighbours are lovely Russians. However, as a country they are aggressive both to non Russians and Russians. The inequalities and poverty caused by almost feudal .management of the wealth of the country is barbaric. Multi billions exist while people starve. Yes Russia is being vilified. Yes many very brave Russians are speaking out. But as a whole the country is toxic.

But actually what we all need to do - but never will - is support our fellow small person whether Russian or Ukrainian or whatever. This war is the same as all wars, waged to secure power for people who already have power. Your average Ukrainian will be no better off at the end of it. They weren't very well off to begin with given they lived in a country ruled by an oligarch. Your average Russian ditto. No good will come of it. Loads of people will die and it's all completely pointless. The only thing any of us bystanders can do is hear the stories of people caught in it and pressure our governments to do better.

neo nazis?

@FrecklesMalone Russians also lost vast numbers of people in WWII ofc. 27 million approximately although the true number will never be known. Those deaths stopped Hitler. Not plucky little Britain with its alcoholic faded grandiose PM who turned the troops on the workers. It was Russian boys' bodies piling up in the snow that put an end to the third Reich while Russian citizens dropped dead of starvation in the streets of st Petersburg. Without that, Britain would have been completely fucked.

Putin was running at a 71% approval rating in February. I know that you will probably state that this is just propaganda, but he does have huge domestic support. Not quite sure what your agenda is here.... but as someone with insight into eastern Ukraine, it might be useful to look a little bit further than Zelensky for the root of the troubles there. It would appear that there is a history of 'issues' in Chechya, Georgia etc that Putin is 'forced' to sort out.

@HomecomingKween

OP's agenda pretty clear now.

Yeah ... also explains why the posting style seems familiar. Slightly different angle from previous threads but same underlying 'ethos'

So a Jewish Ukraine president is supporting a neo-nazi force….. right, of all the dodgy media to come this way, many fake pictures on both sides you’ve chosen the one thing that just won’t/couldn’t be true to post about.

As someone who is from NI (not the 6 counties, hate that term, we’ve suffered enough at least let us have a name for our piece of land) it’s the UK and not England and it’s more akin to the UK deciding to invade Ireland, again.

@grannysbay yes when people get too big for their boots Putin hammers them. Zelenskiy is just one more. We're paying more attention to him because of how he's positioned himself. He was stupid enough to think that meant we'd give him a no fly zone. Against a nuclear power? Give me a break. The man's a fool.

@Oinkypig not sure what you've been reading but Ukraine has a neo Nazi troop on state payroll. The only country in the world to do so as far as I know. They're quite open about it and are holocaust deniers:

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

The people voting YABU may I ask why?

You have to remember that huge swathes of mumsnet were happy to swallow the western line of "Muslim = Bad" so it is hardly surprising that when their media feeds them "Russia = Bad" they lap it up like the good little doggies they are.

Ps no issue with Russian people, but no one can force Russia to amend internal policy, we can however deny to cooperate with Russia when it is actively invading a country.

Ah yes, when Russia doesn't do what the West wants we must punish it. Weird that there was no similar outcry or action when Russia supported Assad in Syria. But then again, who gives a fuck about Syrians?? They're not white or Christian (in the main) so they don't count as people in the West's eyes.

Similarly, there was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste to the entire Middle East because a single terrorist organisation with links to the region carried out an attack on the good old US of A.

It was totally justified to send the entire area back to the stone age because a Saudi funded terrorists cell flew two planes into the twin towers. Strangely enough, I don't remember a single person saying we (the West) should be sanctioned for our bloodlust. So very odd that they now think it is appropriate to sanction Russia......