I know that mumsnetters are very concerned and horrified about the war in Ukraine.

[BookkeeperBobby]

AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown

@Oinkypignot sure what you've been reading but Ukraine has a neo Nazi troop on state payroll. The only country in the world to do so as far as I know. They're quite open about it and are holocaust deniers:

OP it is pointless raising things like this. I pointed out in another thread that the UN had raised repeated concerns about violence towards women in Ukraine, with over 76% of Ukrainian women in relationships saying they had experienced physical of sexual abuse at the hands of their partners over the last 12 months. As far as mumsnetters are concerned Ukrainians are beyond criticism. Russians however are the devil incarnate and should be treated as such.

Seen some absolutely awful comments towards Russians on YouTube and social media.

IMHO the cancel culture has gone too far. Russian people are not their government and much like U.K. plc are boycotting Russian products and removing them from shelves, Western companies are also withdrawing, particularly clothing stores from Russia. Russian people still need to feed and clothe themselves, this will really only hurt the little people who depend on those jobs. Seems we’re going backwards and there is anti Russian sentiment everywhere, no critical thinking to consider, this is the work of the few in government, not the many who will no doubt lose/lost already loved ones in this shit show.

A lot of Ukrainian and Russian families are bearing the brunt of losses and it should never have come to this.

Putin is a cunt for invading but I’m keeping an open mind to propaganda on both sides. Sure it runs deeper than ‘he’s just a madman’ from what I can gather this stretches back to NATO in 2008 (but any justification Putin may of felt he had is obviously no longer valid.)

This video is interesting, it’s quite long and takes a while to get going, I ended up fast forwarding to key bits. Basically this professor from the University of Chicago practically predicted what would happen if Ukraine didn’t stay neutral.… what blew my mind is that this was posted 6 years ago. So NATO have known very well they were baiting Ukraine for war when they invited them and then left them high and dry.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

@Thebestwaytoscareatory no nobody is saying anything like that.
I haven't read any posts denouncing Russians as individuals.

However when your leader invades a next door neighbor in Europe you can't be surprised if the rest of your neighbors react strongly.

Sanctions seem like the least worst option to express strong disapproval.

Do I think all Russians are the ‘devil incarnate’ no

Do I think Putin is the devil incarnate, yes

And until such time as the Russian people stand up in enough numbers to show Putin he is wrong, then they suffer. Partly through Putins rules, and partly because of sanctions in place, because of Putins actions and not because of anything we started

@Thebestwaytoscareatory omg yes that is inhuman. I mean they literally traced the 9/11 bombing to one country then bombed a different one. Like, wtaf??! And there are people still being kept passed between one country and another that are implicated in that eg Omar Sheikh, seriously just Google that guy, it's fucking unreal, honestly. It's like with bankruptcy l, if you're really big you don't fall.

Do I think Putin is the devil incarnate, yes

And until such time as the Russian people stand up in enough numbers to show Putin he is wrong, then they suffer.

But you don't think Blair, Bush, Cameron, or Obama are the devil incarnate despite being responsible for the deaths of 10s to 100s of thousands of more innocent people. Neither would you expect to suffer as a westerner because of their decisions. Why is it you think that Russians should have their lives impacted because of their leader but you should be free of any consequence of western bloodlust?

Point of order: Putin is not a madman and we can't defeat him while we say he is. He is in charge of the largest country in Europe. The largest country in the world by landmass. With all of its problematic borders and incursions into its zones and particular pressures on the region (eg it is a peacekeeping force in Armenia, bet you didn't know that, because no one in the UK gives a shit about that region) he is in charge. And he would not be able to be in charge of this massive diverse pulled at all sides nation if he were mentally ill. There are lots of toxic influences and interests on Russia the likes of which our own political leaders here in the UK would have no clue what to do with but they have been very happy Putin has dealt with them while funnelling his dirty money into the UK economy. He has been very useful for them. And he is not insane. If he were, he would have disappeared a long time ago.

However when your leader invades a next door neighbor in Europe you can't be surprised if the rest of your neighbors react strongly.

Sanctions seem like the least worst option to express strong disapproval.

Ah ok, it is the proximaty that is the issue. If Putin had decided to invade Kenya or Chile we wouldn't give a fuck. Just like when we decimated Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. They're not our neighbours so they don't count as people, no need for sanctions if your killing people outside of Europe, after all we're the only people that matter.

How would you prefer that the appalling invasion of Ukraine by Russian forces is bought to a halt?

Boots on the ground by NATO allies?
Sanctions on Russia meaning they can't afford to run the war?

Or perhaps you think the invasion is justified and should just be allowed to go ahead?

Which is it?

Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014. Nobody gave a crap about it until Zelenskiy got enough bent money behind him that he was able to sweet talk NATO.

Oh FFS.🙄

What are you FFS--ing about?

I'm sorry that the world isn't conveniently divided into goodies and baddies for you but at least you're not dying because of this shit.

Do you agree with the invasion of Ukraine?

What, me personally, a twat on a talkboard? Of course not.

I didn't agree with it in 2014 either but nobody asked me then because they weren't paying attention.

I don't recall the UK government having much to say on the matter at that point as it goes.

I do remember the point at which the UK government decided the invasion was war earlier this year. Interesting that that wasn't declared by either active party, not the one invading nor the one who was invaded.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

The people voting YABU may I ask why?

You have to remember that huge swathes of mumsnet were happy to swallow the western line of "Muslim = Bad" so it is hardly surprising that when their media feeds them "Russia = Bad" they lap it up like the good little doggies they are.

Ps no issue with Russian people, but no one can force Russia to amend internal policy, we can however deny to cooperate with Russia when it is actively invading a country.

Ah yes, when Russia doesn't do what the West wants we must punish it. Weird that there was no similar outcry or action when Russia supported Assad in Syria. But then again, who gives a fuck about Syrians?? They're not white or Christian (in the main) so they don't count as people in the West's eyes.

Similarly, there was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste to the entire Middle East because a single terrorist organisation with links to the region carried out an attack on the good old US of A.

It was totally justified to send the entire area back to the stone age because a Saudi funded terrorists cell flew two planes into the twin towers. Strangely enough, I don't remember a single person saying we (the West) should be sanctioned for our bloodlust. So very odd that they now think it is appropriate to sanction Russia......

*Weird that there was no similar outcry or action when Russia supported Assad in Syria. But then again, who gives a fuck about Syrians?? They're not white or Christian (in the main) so they don't count as people in the West's eyes.

Similarly, there was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste to the entire Middle East because a single terrorist organisation with links to the region carried out an attack on the good old US of A.

It was totally justified to send the entire area back to the stone age because a Saudi funded terrorists cell flew two planes into the twin towers. Strangely enough, I don't remember a single person saying we (the West) should be sanctioned for our bloodlust. So very odd that they now think it is appropriate to sanction Russia......*

I marched, I protested, I wrote to government ministers, I stood outside the US embassy for two weeks using my holidays up to do so. I am not Muslim. That war was not in my name.

But - when I see the reporting on this war I do cast a lot of thoughts to that time and think that there is plenty of presidence for what Putin is doing. We have done the same and worse, I agree.

Does not make any of it right.

Do you not think it's a war?

Perhaps you think it is a special operation.

Well obviously it's a war now. At the point we proclaimed it was a war things didn't look so very different to how they had been the day before. No one was doing anything very different.

It all changed after we'd announced a war was happening. It's definitely a war now.

You think calling it a war made it a war, rather than Russia's invasion of Ukraine making it a war?

Even some of Putins soldiers have realised that they have been sent to war on a lie.

Seems like a lot of bots on here tonight, #mumsnetHQ please take a look

Thank you for this thread, OP; I am tired of the simplistic stuff we are expected to follow blindly.

I dunno. Like I say, Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and apparently that wasn't a war. Both sides committed atrocities in the eight years prior to 2022 and apparently that wasn't a war. Thousands of people died between 2014-2022 and that wasn't a war.

Zelenskiy got into power via a closed snap election funded by a backer who ransacked the national bank so blatantly to the point he's banned from the USA, sucked trump's cock and presented his arse to NATO, and now we're in 2022 and his money is tied up in big people, not as big as Russia but big, so it's a bit of a power struggle, so it's one side tilts and it's officially war, apparently. BUT what people are forgetting in all this money and tilting is that Russia is actually quite a big armied country and they can do some damage, and they do.

And obviously it is war now. But it was war eight years ago. But it wasn't in anyone's interest to call it that so they didn't.

[quote BookkeeperBobby]AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown[/quote]
If this subject is so important to you, why have you decided to pose your question at such a late hour? Surely, if you were really interested in garnering opinion, you’d post at a time when more people would be awake.

That is such a odd question. What if the OP was busy during the day? Threads don’t just disappear due to the time posted. It’s like asking “why are you up”. Argh this place is weird at times.

I dunno M8. It's just the hours I keep.