I know that mumsnetters are very concerned and horrified about the war in Ukraine.

[BookkeeperBobby]

AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown

@BookkeeperBobby

I dunno. Like I say, Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and apparently that wasn't a war. Both sides committed atrocities in the eight years prior to 2022 and apparently that wasn't a war. Thousands of people died between 2014-2022 and that wasn't a war.

Zelenskiy got into power via a closed snap election funded by a backer who ransacked the national bank so blatantly to the point he's banned from the USA, sucked trump's cock and presented his arse to NATO, and now we're in 2022 and his money is tied up in big people, not as big as Russia but big, so it's a bit of a power struggle, so it's one side tilts and it's officially war, apparently. BUT what people are forgetting in all this money and tilting is that Russia is actually quite a big armied country and they can do some damage, and they do.

And obviously it is war now. But it was war eight years ago. But it wasn't in anyone's interest to call it that so they didn't.

Can you do less of the hyperbole and stick more to facts - along with links to reliable sources.

Aside from “historical” stuff that we may all want to hold anyone accountable for, what is the point of your thread?

There is ZERO justification/reasoning/etc for what is currently happening in Ukraine. I’d advise focussing your outrage on the current situation. Demand your answers at a more appropriate time further down the line.

Similarly, there was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste to the entire Middle East because a single terrorist organisation with links to the region carried out an attack on the good old US of A.

Do you mean 9/11? That happened in 2001?

Hadn't mumset only been founded a year before? How popular were the forums in the first few years? And I am pretty sure there's not that many posters who were posting here in 2001/2002 and still here. You are talking about a group of people, where the individuals have changed. There's no comparison.

There will have been thousands and thousands of people come and gone in that time. Lots of people posting now would have been children in 2001.

When I started posting here in 2009,it was often talked about and Condemned. There was lots of people concerned and unhappy about that war. And there were lots of people actively opposed to it and had attended protests etc.

@BookkeeperBobby

I dunno M8. It's just the hours I keep.

Right, ok - thanks “mate”.

Quite amused that I'm seen as a Russian bot tho. Lol cheers for that. I'm not Russian but the arms of the state are long in Russia and let's just say Russians are facing four years hard labour for going on social media rn so I'm not about to disclose my Russian connections.

@Furries okey you don't want to view the war in context. Crack on then.

@EddyF

That is such a odd question. What if the OP was busy during the day? Threads don’t just disappear due to the time posted. It’s like asking “why are you up”. Argh this place is weird at times.

I’m often busy in the day. But if I ever have the urge to ask an important question, I’d generally wait until I was able to do so during vaguely normal waking hours, rather than just before midnight.

I'm not sure what the point of your thread is OP.

Are you anti sanctions?

.

[quote BookkeeperBobby]@Furries okey you don't want to view the war in context. Crack on then.[/quote]
It’s an invasion, not a war. Russia has not been attacked.

TBF, I did only read your posts. So am not aware that anyone has called you a “bot”. If they have, just click on the “report” link on their posts so that admins can delete if necessary.

@Furries I'm sorry but I think you're suspicious because you're posting outside of office hours and therefore I am unable to engage with you.

How would you prefer that the appalling invasion of Ukraine by Russian forces is bought to a halt?

Boots on the ground by NATO allies?
Sanctions on Russia meaning they can't afford to run the war?

Or perhaps you think the invasion is justified and should just be allowed to go ahead?

Which is it?

I don't know if this was directed at me or the OP but as far as I'm concerned no invasion is justified. What Russia are doing in Ukraine is as bad as what we did in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Korea, South Africa, Australia, India, Pakistan, and so on and so on. The difference is when we do it we expect the world to sit back and pretend what we are doing is OK and/or justified. If a Russia, China, Iran, etc do it then they are monsters and must be stopped.

It's the hypocrisy that gets me, if we are sanctioning Russia for what they are doing in Ukraine then surely we should be sanctioning ourselves for our actions across the globe?

Imagine what would have happened if Russia or China took the view that our actions in the Middle East were appalling and decided to intervene. I very much doubt anyone on mumsnet would have been saying how righteous and justified Iraq or Afghanistan was for standing up against the Western onslaught and that the UK and America should be sanctioned to the hilt for it.

As for what should happen then either we should let Russia and Ukraine get on with it and accept the outcome, or we should lead by example and lay down our own arms and declare that never again will the West get involved in a conflict that does not directly threaten us. However given the fact that the US economy is intrinsically linked to war, and the fact that we are their lap dogs, I can't see that ever happening. As far as the West is concerned war is money war is profit, war is good, and war is vital.

The New Yorker piece is good.

@Stopsnowing it is, isn't it. This is the Russia that I know and that was on my feeds till the bastards shut it down. A restless diverse questioning group of people who refuse to be pinned to their state.

[quote BookkeeperBobby]@Furries I'm sorry but I think you're suspicious because you're posting outside of office hours and therefore I am unable to engage with you.[/quote]
🤣🤣

Fair point, in a way. Guess I’d approach it differently. If I had an important question to ask, I wouldn’t do it late at night - I’d post during the day to hopefully garner more traffic (maybe with a disclaimer that I’m a night owl, so may not respond until later that night).

It’s not my experience that the average Russian generally doesn’t support Putin. Young international journalists such as in the article you posted don’t but ime many average Russians do. Not all of course and that doesn’t mean that all Russian people are the enemy. I opposed the second Iraq war and demonstrated against it but ultimately other countries would have been justified in sanctions against the UK to stop it as it was illegal imo.

It’s true we didn’t care as much about Russian atrocities in other further away countries like Syria, Georgia, etc. But it’s entirely reasonable for an attack on a state on the border of NATO and the EU to be particularly concerning to people in the uK. It has direct consequences for us.

The nonsense you post about Zelensky and neo nazis is complete rubbish and you are either naïve or spreading deliberate propaganda. Zelensky was supported by an oligarth, yes but he is certainly no neo nazi. Ukraine has also come along well the past few years, while less than perfect improvements were being made.

There are a some far right groups in Ukraine but actually much fewer than in Russia (for example). Actually the attitudes to the far right in Ukraine are much less favourable than somewhere like Poland.

Ultimately though Ukraine and the Ukrainian people have made it clear that they want their own self determination and to align themselves with NATO and the EU. That’s their choice.

Putin is perhaps not mad but certainly bad. The speeches he makes about Ukraine not being a real country etc to justify the attacks tell us really why he is attacking. He wants to control Ukraine against the wishes of the Ukrainian people. We must stop him.

Also: the complete mindless irony of people in the UK - a country that voted for fucking Brexit and a Tory PM who told them "we're all in this together" FOR FUCKS SAKE - jawing on about brainwashed Russians ... nobody in Russia believes their politicians, not one single person. They are more than wise to them. Could do with a bit more of that here.

Im sorry but i dont think the op is a bot because many disagree, i think all points of view have a right to be heard when someone presents their thoughts respectfully.

I dont like the bullying attitude on this website whenever anyone questions a status quo.

I might not agree with someone but they have a right to speak.
Trying to attack and humiliate them is childish and pretty much reveals your own insecurities of belief.

There are many good points in this thread. We should be able to hear details about this war without such black and white thinking and policing.

To berate and as suspicious questions of the op for 'being up late' - get a fucking grip, what the hell are YOU dong up late, acting the bloodhound on a message board?

DONG

Do you mean 9/11? That happened in 2001?

Hadn't mumset only been founded a year before? How popular were the forums in the first few years? And I am pretty sure there's not that many posters who were posting here in 2001/2002 and still here. You are talking about a group of people, where the individuals have changed. There's no comparison.

There will have been thousands and thousands of people come and gone in that time. Lots of people posting now would have been children in 2001.

When I started posting here in 2009,it was often talked about and Condemned. There was lots of people concerned and unhappy about that war. And there were lots of people actively opposed to it and had attended protests etc.

We've been laying waste to the Middle East for over a century (centuries if you count pre-industrial rampages). 2001-2021 was just the latest in a long line of Western attempts at dominating the region. However, focusing on that specific period, I don't recall a single time anyone on mumsnet, or elsewhere for that matter, suggested that sanctions against the UK and/or the West should be imposed for their actions in the region. Imagine what would have happened if China, Russia, Argentina, Mexico, France, etc tried to impose sanctions on the UK and US. At a minimum it would have been vetoed and if that didn’t work ww3 would have been and gone by now. Plenty of people in Russia have attended protests against Putin et al, that hasn't stop the West from fucking them over.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

It's important to distinguish the actions of a state from its people. In any country there are people who disagree with the government. In a democracy they should be able to say that freely. Russia is not a democracy and blaming all Russians is unfair. Western governments are acting against the Russian state.

Very well stated. Your username is brilliant! ☺️

I dont sleep well. Even worse lately. Mum died, i cant sleep much. I slept from 10am until 2.30am.

During this time my mind wonders and I do most of my serious thinking, when the house is quiet.

I dont often start threads on MN. But I am more likely do it at this time. Come 6am, i am and ds is up and i have less time. I didn't realise there were certain hours that are more acceptable than others, to post. Certainly didn't realise that after 13 years of posting, that judgements were placed on me due to that.

Ukraine has also come along well the past few years, while less than perfect improvements were being made.

So well that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and Freedom House warned that "Ukraine is sinking into a chaos of uncontrolled violence posed by radical groups and their total impunity" after government ties to several far right groups including C14, National Militia, Right Sector, and Karpatska Sich were revealed in 2018 (not long after which C14 launced attacks across the country against international women's day).

@EleonorBronte

Im sorry but i dont think the op is a bot because many disagree, i think all points of view have a right to be heard when someone presents their thoughts respectfully.

I dont like the bullying attitude on this website whenever anyone questions a status quo.

I might not agree with someone but they have a right to speak.
Trying to attack and humiliate them is childish and pretty much reveals your own insecurities of belief.

There are many good points in this thread. We should be able to hear details about this war without such black and white thinking and policing.

To berate and as suspicious questions of the op for 'being up late' - get a fucking grip, what the hell are YOU dong up late, acting the bloodhound on a message board?

Ok, I’ll accept that as my failing.

All I know is, if I felt strongly enough to start a thread on a really important situation, then I wouldn’t start it so late at night - I’d want maximum potential footfall on the thread.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

Do you mean 9/11? That happened in 2001?

Hadn't mumset only been founded a year before? How popular were the forums in the first few years? And I am pretty sure there's not that many posters who were posting here in 2001/2002 and still here. You are talking about a group of people, where the individuals have changed. There's no comparison.

There will have been thousands and thousands of people come and gone in that time. Lots of people posting now would have been children in 2001.

When I started posting here in 2009,it was often talked about and Condemned. There was lots of people concerned and unhappy about that war. And there were lots of people actively opposed to it and had attended protests etc.

We've been laying waste to the Middle East for over a century (centuries if you count pre-industrial rampages). 2001-2021 was just the latest in a long line of Western attempts at dominating the region. However, focusing on that specific period, I don't recall a single time anyone on mumsnet, or elsewhere for that matter, suggested that sanctions against the UK and/or the West should be imposed for their actions in the region. Imagine what would have happened if China, Russia, Argentina, Mexico, France, etc tried to impose sanctions on the UK and US. At a minimum it would have been vetoed and if that didn’t work ww3 would have been and gone by now. Plenty of people in Russia have attended protests against Putin et al, that hasn't stop the West from fucking them over.

Well mumsnet hasn't been around for centuries.

The comment I responded to moaned that 20 years ago MNers didn't do something. The comment specifically mentioned a certain period in time.

I think plenty did oppose it and talk about it and were concerned about it AND the vast majority of todays MNers were not here at that time.

And yes, actually, lots of people did talk about how if it was other countries there would be sanctions and consequences for their actions. But No one actively seeks out sanctions against their own countries. Woild you expect people to lobby their own MP, to get another country to put sanctions on us?

I didn't talk about the situation in general. I replied to a comment about MN and posters reactions at a specific time.

It was a ridiculous comment. It was incorrect and failed to take into account that MNers, in the main, will be a totally different group of individuals to 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. Or that the ones that are the same, will have changed. Matured. View the world in an entirely different way, to what they did 20 years ago.

I take it that you were an original MNer. Joined the site right at the start? You havent noticed people have changed? That posters have come and gone.

All I know is, if I felt strongly enough to start a thread on a really important situation, then I wouldn’t start it so late at night - I’d want maximum potential footfall on the thread.

But not everyone posts for maximum footfall. They post their thoughts at a time that works for them.