I know that mumsnetters are very concerned and horrified about the war in Ukraine.

[BookkeeperBobby]

AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown

But it's clear what the OP of this thread is about. None of it good.

Talking about Zelensky 'sucking Trump's cock' when Trump was impeached for trying to get Zelensky to investigate Hunter Biden is a bit odd.

@Flyingteaspoon I've already given you a link to a report on the Azov battalion which is the official neo Nazi arm of the Ukrainian state forces. It was written during the time when the UK media were still fairly critical of the Ukrainian government. Here it is again. And to reiterate, Ukraine is the only country in the world that has a neo Nazi battalion. Not the only country that has neo Nazis of course, but the only one that has them as legitimate actors in state conflicts. Two countries have exercised a veto from the UN resolution against state utilisation of neo Nazis: Ukraine and the USA.

static.guim.co.uk/images/favicon-32x32.ico

Of course this does not mean that Zelenskiy is a Nazi or that all Ukrainians are Nazis. This is a very specific battalion tasked in a specific region. But they are state neo Nazis. Sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting about Zelenskiy being Jewish does nothing to alter that fact and Putin is busily capitalising on it all the time that commentators fail to address it.

@BookkeeperBobby

Yes it is v like Ireland which makes all the bellyaching about it from our government worse. Zelenskiy has been quite content for his little band of neo Nazis to wreak absolute havoc on the border really up to all sorts displacing and killing and torturing it has been really bad for eight years. And you can argue that Russians shouldn't have been there but would you likewise argue that English shouldn't have been in the six counties. See it is not so straightforward.

Isn't it difficult to be accepted by neo-Nazis if your family is Jewish? I'd heard that there is something of a divide.

With his Jewish heritage, how would Zelenskiy be allowed to lead such a 'band'?

Are you a Putin-bot BookkeeperBobby?

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches middle class Russians haven't done great under Putin. Middle class Brits on the other hand have done very well indeed : "Ooh, my house has gone up in value by £100,000 since I bought it, ooh isn't it just crazy? I can't work out what's going on with the property market."

[quote BookkeeperBobby]@grannysbay yes when people get too big for their boots Putin hammers them. Zelenskiy is just one more. We're paying more attention to him because of how he's positioned himself. He was stupid enough to think that meant we'd give him a no fly zone. Against a nuclear power? Give me a break. The man's a fool.[/quote]
I think the first line of this is extremely telling.

You know, it is possible for both leaders to be absolute arseholes and it still be unacceptable to invade. Is it important that Putin = bad and zelenskiy = good? Or can we agree that what matters is what is happening, not the characters of the leaders?

@BookkeeperBobby

Quite amused that I'm seen as a Russian bot tho. Lol cheers for that. I'm not Russian but the arms of the state are long in Russia and let's just say Russians are facing four years hard labour for going on social media rn so I'm not about to disclose my Russian connections.

Russians are also paid to go on social media and spread Russian propaganda, aren't they?

Some Russians are yes. Ordinary Russians are banned from it now though and can face four years' hard labour if caught. There are reports of people receiving threatening WhatsApp messages from the police this last month. That's why they are leaving. Because Putin is not a nice man and the Russian state doesn't give you notice before it knocks on your door.

Wow I mean I find some of the arrogance on MN surprising but this is absolutely breathtaking. I'm sorry OP are you honestly arrogant or ignorant enough to believe any of this is new information?

Do you truly believe people don't understand the nuances until you've explained them and that anyone has missed your agenda skewed "information"?

I have no problem with different views or opinions. Any war is nuanced. I doubt very much anyone truly believes either side is perfect but there is no avoiding that what Putin has done is abhorrent this time. The whole of human history has behaviours each country has that are not "clean" it doesn't make their further actions automatically without merit.

There has been very little anti Russian sentiment but a plethora of anti putin sentiment , as well as recognition that many leaders have not behaved well.

Truthfully either you are pushing an agenda and not bright enough to do it cleverly, or you are beyond arrogant and genuinely think you are the only one that can think critically. Actually this thread suggests your critical analysis abilities are far lower than you think they are.

Shockingly the actual information is not new. Many people know this. I hate to burst the bubble but you are not more informed or ground breaking.

Personally, I think the Ukrainian war is a disaster for both Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine will be a wasteland and Russia's international standing will be damaged for decades - unless they can get rid of Poot. Think of all the parents on both sides finding out that their only son is dead. I travelled across Russia about 5 years ago, and found Russians to be decent enough people.

I think your use of the Azov battalion as an excuse to brand Ukrainians as neo-nazis is very weak. A motorized battalion is likely to consist of no more than 1500 people, and probably less than 1000 - a fraction of Ukrainian forces. One could justifiably use the presence of Wagner Group personnel and Chechens to call the Russians Nazis. Militarily they are very effective, not unlike the SS in WW2: highly politically motivated forces are like that.

Personally, I would love to see a future in which Russia and "the west" cooperate to meet the many challenges facing the world, not least climate change, but I expect that will be off the table for a few years - right when it matters.

I also wonder if there are major global powers waiting quietly in the wings for the Russians to dash their state on the rocks of the Ukrainian war, so they can get unrestricted access to all those lovely resources..

Ok that's great. I must be imagining people who are arguing against what I'm saying then. It's all good.

@Usou agree there must be a strategic international reason for NATO to have encouraged Putin to step up the war into outright invasion and then condemn him. Maybe he had outgrown his usefulness and got too problematic with the whole gas supply thing. After all it must have been a blow for de pfeffel to have his erstwhile Brexit buddy have such a hold on fiscal policies via energy prices.

I read that article and I have many Russian friends and also spent quite a bit of time in Russia in the late 1990s-mid 2000s. The article is a bit of a cliche too though - the intelligentsia has always been against the powers to be in Russia. Russia has had imperialism in different forms for centuries. The Russian people are now well educated and were not badly off as a whole in the last 15 years. There is too much of a culture of what will be will be and too much Mother Russia suffers brainwashing at the deepest levels. Of course Putin is a dictator, but the Russian people also need to wake up from being slaves to dictators for centuries. They are well educated with amazing talents and natural resources and need to free themselves from the shackles of the users at the top.

So you want us to support Russians? And not be anti Russian?

I would say there’s a huge amount of distrust for Russians in Scandinavia so I doubt we are going to change our viewpoint on Russia any time soon.

Do we hate Russians? Yes some Scandinavians do hate Russians. Some Scandinavians don’t hate Russians. The same as anywhere. A lot of us distrust and take anything coming out of Russia or anything pro Russian with a grain of salt. So I for one won’t be on board with pulling out a tiny violin for “ordinary” Russians.

It’s for them to oust Putin and if they don’t then it’s in them how their nation is viewed and how people grow Russia. I’m not saying people should attack anyone on the street, but don’t expect people to “oh those poor Russians” when that’s not what we feel. I certainly don’t feel that way. And I think you would be hard pressed to find any pro Russian sentiment anywhere in Scandinavia for sure. I can’t speak for the UK, but we haven’t been a fan of Russia for centuries and I don’t see this changing.

Typo.. it should say it’s on them how people view Russia. *

@BookkeeperBobby

What are you FFS--ing about?

I'm sorry that the world isn't conveniently divided into goodies and baddies for you but at least you're not dying because of this shit.

Thanks for the apology @BookkeeperBobby. Lots of people are dying and will continue to die as long as Putin continues with his war.

Putin is a cunt and he looks like .

Do you think what you are posting is more akin to what the Russians being paid to spread Russian propaganda are posting, or the Russians who risk being sentenced to hard labour are posting?

@Nietzschethehiker

Wow I mean I find some of the arrogance on MN surprising but this is absolutely breathtaking. I'm sorry OP are you honestly arrogant or ignorant enough to believe any of this is new information?

Do you truly believe people don't understand the nuances until you've explained them and that anyone has missed your agenda skewed "information"?

I have no problem with different views or opinions. Any war is nuanced. I doubt very much anyone truly believes either side is perfect but there is no avoiding that what Putin has done is abhorrent this time. The whole of human history has behaviours each country has that are not "clean" it doesn't make their further actions automatically without merit.

There has been very little anti Russian sentiment but a plethora of anti putin sentiment , as well as recognition that many leaders have not behaved well.

Truthfully either you are pushing an agenda and not bright enough to do it cleverly, or you are beyond arrogant and genuinely think you are the only one that can think critically. Actually this thread suggests your critical analysis abilities are far lower than you think they are.

Shockingly the actual information is not new. Many people know this. I hate to burst the bubble but you are not more informed or ground breaking.

This x 100.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory

However when your leader invades a next door neighbor in Europe you can't be surprised if the rest of your neighbors react strongly.

Sanctions seem like the least worst option to express strong disapproval.

Ah ok, it is the proximaty that is the issue. If Putin had decided to invade Kenya or Chile we wouldn't give a fuck. Just like when we decimated Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. They're not our neighbours so they don't count as people, no need for sanctions if your killing people outside of Europe, after all we're the only people that matter.

I think it would be unrealistic to imagine that proximity isn't an issue. Because self interest is always going to be part of any political intervention.

If Putin was invading Chile there would be a much stronger involvement from other countries in that region. Who you will notice have not been particularly involved in this European crisis.

This isn't about the inherent worthiness of any group of individuals simply political reality.

The Russians have not been bravely fighting neo nazis for 8 years at all. The Russians imported to Ukraine after the Russians starved Ukraine under Stalin have been funded and equipped by Russia to cause civil war, the Ukranians have been defending their own land from Russian backed separatists for 8 years.

Do you truly believe people don't understand the nuances until you've explained them

Casually reading the thread I would say the answer is yes.

Thank you OP for starting this thread and for the ensuing debate. I have been troubled by the partisanship media coverage since the beginning of the war.

@DysonSphere, if you are worried about media partisanship, expand your media sources.

I wish I can remember where... last week i heard a whole summary on the Azov battalion. Their history, their present, their far right links. Historically Excellent fighters that are a small % of whole UA, their reputation as excellent militia attracted people of all views, a tiny % of Azov members hold extremist views.

Too bad Russians are bad at dealing with their native-grown far right extremists.

Meanwhile, Putin gets high approval ratings in Russia.

Your "poor" Russian soldiers are using rape tactics, firing on civilians and kidnapping them. Unless they start fragging their officers, I will have no pity for them.
I wish for Ukraine to have vast sunflower fields after this war.
Ordinary Russians are vastly in favor of Putin. Maybe because they are misinformed, maybe because they are bought shills like you. Let them feel the hunger and pain of the sanctions, it is only a fraction of what they are gleefully letting Ukrainians suffer.