I know that mumsnetters are very concerned and horrified about the war in Ukraine.

[BookkeeperBobby]

AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown

@BookkeeperBobby you can’t possibly say that not one single person in Russia believes Putin. Even it it were true (it’s not) what evidence could you have for that.

I don’t think the war is popular in Russia but many do believe and support Putin.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory not sure what your point is. Do u think there should be no sanctions against Russia for the attack on Ukraine? I didn’t agree with the war in Iraq same as many in the U.K. but as I am based in the U.K. I am hardly going to want to sanction myself!

In respect of WW2, we never really confronted the atrocities committed by Russia and the Soviet Union because they did help us win the war. Certainly they never had to confront their past as the Germans did. And they did some awful things since from Stalinism to Chechnya to Afghanistan.

Poland and many other Eastern European countries have welcomed refugees from Ukraine because they suffered so long from Russian control and atrocities committed in and to their countries. Stalin probably murdered more civilians in deliberate acts than hitler, yet hitler is still the archetypal baddie.

Ultimately Ukraine should have the right to self determination and the vicious invasion by Russia must be stopped. The nonsense from Putin about nazis etc should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory - Ukraine was first invaded six years ago and Russian supported violence has been going on since that time. Uncontrolled violence in 2018 though? Who makes those claims?

particularly in the occupied regions there were issues. But generally civil society was improving despite the attacks.

I have been very clear in previous posts that some of our compassion and sympathy should also be with ordinary Russian people and Russian soldiers, all of whom are lied to or sent to die or made to suffer due to their brutal murderous dictatorship of a government.

However, the fact remains that Russian citizens are not being bombed and murdered whereas Ukrainian citizens are. The fact also remains that, even if they are conscripts, Russian soldiers are armed combatants invading another country, and therefore legitimate targets for the Ukrainian military. Russian soldiers do have the option, if their consciences start to bother them, of surrendering or defecting or changing sides.

Most of them do not do this, of course, because their families in Russia would be in harm's way from the Russian government. The same thing applies to Russian public figures who refuse to publicly condemn the Russian government for the same perfectly understandable reason.

People in the west are very naive about what living in a dictatorship actually means. Any speech or gesture that here would be viewed as mainstream can cause severe problems in a dictatorship, not just for the person themselves but also for their families.

This may surprise people, but I am not in favour of sacking individuals just because they refuse to publicly condemn Putin. Neither am I in favour of banning RT. If our case is strong enough it can easily withstand the drivel pumped out by RT, which can (if it isn't banned) be seen for the propaganda that it is. "Lord Haw Haw" broadcast to the UK from Nazi Germany throughout WW2 and was not jammed, precisely because the effect was exactly the opposite of what the Nazis intended.

Finally, since Russia has denied free speech to its own citizens, I do not blame Ukraine for shutting down Kremlin mouthpieces within Ukraine, in fact I'm surprised that they didn't do it before. This is a fight to the death with no quarter given, and so everyone in Ukraine (and, I would argue, everywhere else) now has to choose a side. In these circumstances sitting on the fence is no longer an option.

Was Ukraine perfect? Far from it. However, if this is now a choice between two evils, I am very clear myself about which evil is the lesser one of the two.

The comment I responded to moaned that 20 years ago MNers didn't do something. The comment specifically mentioned a certain period in time.

You responded to my comment and I did not moan that mumsnetters didn't do something 20 years ago. I mentioned that because of an incident in 2001 we saw fit to decimate an entire region for 20+ years. At no point in that time did anyone call for sanctions on us for our actions. Even now we are still involved in fucking up that region (selling arms, expertise, and support to various belligerents, or in the case of America taking direct military action) but there's still no call to sanction anyone.

I didn't talk about the situation in general. I replied to a comment about MN and posters reactions at a specific time.

But I was talking about the situation in general, you read "Saudi terror attack" and decided I was speaking solely about 2001. I wasn't.

Woild you expect people to lobby their own MP, to get another country to put sanctions on us?

No of course not, but in the same vein I don't think people should call for sanctions against other countries if they're not willing to have them imposed on themselves for the same actions. If you think Russia should be sanctioned for invading Ukraine then you should think the UK should be sanctioned for invading...well everywhere. If you're argument against that is "Russia are doing it now though" then fine, but you should be calling for the UK to pursue a strictly defensive military strategy from now on and do away with any offensive capability.

It was a ridiculous comment. It was incorrect and failed to take into account that MNers, in the main, will be a totally different group of individuals to 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. Or that the ones that are the same, will have changed. Matured. View the world in an entirely different way, to what they did 20 years ago.

No, your interpretation was ridiculous. As mentioned I was not talking about a specific event 20 years ago, I was talking about the entirety of the past 20+ years. And again, I still don't see anyone arguing that we should pay for what we did during that time.

I take it that you were an original MNer. Joined the site right at the start? You havent noticed people have changed? That posters have come and gone.

Not an original no, but near and no people have not changed really. There is, and always has been, the presumption that the western way of life is the ideal and that any other way is various degrees of wrong, ranging from the tolerable to the "that shouldn't be allowed". Why do you think Russia are perpetually painted as the "bad guys"? It's quite simply because they do not embrace the western ideal of "freedom" (lol) and "democracy" (double lol), same reason China, Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc are considered baddies.

So many edgelords on here

@noblegiraffe

How would you prefer that the appalling invasion of Ukraine by Russian forces is bought to a halt?

Boots on the ground by NATO allies?
Sanctions on Russia meaning they can't afford to run the war?

Or perhaps you think the invasion is justified and should just be allowed to go ahead?

Which is it?

That’s called “whataboutery”, and it just diminishes your argument I’m afraid

You responded to my comment and I did not moan that mumsnetters didn't do something 20 years ago. I mentioned that because of an incident in 2001 we saw fit to decimate an entire region for 20+ years. At no point in that time did anyone call for sanctions on us for our actions. Even now we are still involved in fucking up that region (selling arms, expertise, and support to various belligerents, or in the case of America taking direct military action) but there's still no call to sanction anyone.

Yes you did. Your post specifications talked about MNers reactions. Your post said there was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste

How is that not moaning the MNers didn't do something 20 years ago? And that's particular part is the part I responded to. Which is why I quoted it.

But I was talking about the situation in general, you read "Saudi terror attack" and decided I was speaking solely about 2001. I wasn't.

Again you mentioned a specific incident. I asked did you mean 9/11? You said because a single terrorist organisation with links to the region carried out an attack on the good old US of A. You said an attack. As in one.

Again, the part I was commenting on was the part I quoted in my first post.

No of course not, but in the same vein I don't think people should call for sanctions against other countries if they're not willing to have them imposed on themselves for the same actions. If you think Russia should be sanctioned for invading Ukraine then you should think the UK should be sanctioned for invading...well everywhere. If you're argument against that is "Russia are doing it now though" then fine, but you should be calling for the UK to pursue a strictly defensive military strategy from now on and do away with any offensive capability

No one is willing to have sanctions imposed on themselves. Sanctions impact normal people trying to live their lives. Even when people disagree with their governments decisions, they aren't going to push to have themsel3vs pushed into poverty. Or even ask for it.

I absolutely think we were wrong. I think we should have faced sanctions. Because that's how, it apparently, works. Again, I commented on the specific bit I quoted. That you can not compare a forums recatoon 20 years ago to its reactions today, when it's alot more popular and mainstream and there's been a huge turnover of posters.

No, your interpretation was ridiculous. As mentioned I was not talking about a specific event 20 years ago, I was talking about the entirety of the past 20+ years. And again, I still don't see anyone arguing that we should pay for what we did during that time.

Again, your position of 'mn thought this 20 years ago with completely different posters' is ridiculous. I quoted the part I was commenting on that specifically mentioned MNers and a specific incident.

Not an original no, but near and no people have not changed really. There is, and always has been, the presumption that the western way of life is the ideal and that any other way is various degrees of wrong, ranging from the tolerable to the "that shouldn't be allowed". Why do you think Russia are perpetually painted as the "bad guys"? It's quite simply because they do not embrace the western ideal of "freedom" (lol) and "democracy" (double lol), same reason China, Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc are considered baddies

That doesn't even address what I said, which you went to the effort of copying and pasting. Which said you haven't noticed people have come and gone? You haven't noticed there are new posters, new people.

Theres people who were kids 20 years ago who now post. You are seriously suggesting that this site, has all the same people.

You may think attitudes are the same. I disagree because you say people didn't talk about how sanctions would have happened if we were anyone else. But you can't honestly think its the same posters for 20 years.

This isn't the place to discuss things like this. Post will probably be taken down

@Thebestwaytoscareatorynot sure what your point is. Do u think there should be no sanctions against Russia for the attack on Ukraine? I didn’t agree with the war in Iraq same as many in the U.K. but as I am based in the U.K. I am hardly going to want to sanction myself!

Then you're a hypocrite. Either it is wrong to invade a county on nonsensical grounds, or it isn't. In fact, I would argue there is more justification for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, given that they are next door neighbours and Ukraine has Russian supporting regions within it, than for the West to invade a country 1000s of miles away because a Saudi national and his international terrorist cell (that was initially founded, funded, and trained by the west) may have been hiding in the border regions of said country.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory- Ukraine was first invaded six years ago and Russian supported violence has been going on since that time. Uncontrolled violence in 2018 though? Who makes those claims?

particularly in the occupied regions there were issues. But generally civil society was improving despite the attacks.

I literally said in that post. Amnesty International, Freedom House, and Human Rights Watch made the claims. The UN women's organisation also raised concerns after a study in 2017 (I think) by them found that 75+% of women with partners had experienced physical or sexual violence in the previous 12 months. Ukraine was and is not some golden paradise it western ideals.

Also "Russia supported violence" is a fairly recent take on the euromaiden movement and subsequent "Revolution of Dignity". Until very recently the narrative was split and documentaries like Ukraine on Fire were being praised for telling the story of those in the Donbas regions as they tried to fight for their right to self determination. Funny how quickly narratives change when those in power decide they should.

Yes you did. Your post specifications talked about MNers reactions. Your post saidthere was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste

How is that not moaning the MNers didn't do something 20 years ago? And that's particular part is the part I responded to. Which is why I quoted it.

If you're going to quote things I say at least quote the full sentence. What I said was "there was ZERO outcry from the good posters mumsnet as the West lay waste to the entire Middle East because a single terrorist organisation with links to the region carried out an attack on the good old US of A."

You've interpretated that as me saying there was no outcry over the specific invasion in 2001/2 or event of 9/11. I am telling you I meant it in context to the entire 20+ year involvement.

For clarity I am not comparing the reaction of mumsnetters 20 years ago to one specific event to mumsnetters reaction to another specific event. Rather, I am comparing the attitudes in general over a 20+ year period.

At this very moment plenty of mumnsnetters are in full support of sanctions against Russia for their actions in Ukriane. I have not seen a single call for sanctions against the US for their current involvement in Somalia (and God knows where else), Israel for their current involvement in Syria, or Saudi Arabia for their involvement in Yemen (or the UK for supporting it).

You've interpretated that as me saying there was no outcry over the specific invasion in 2001/2 or event of 9/11. I am telling you I meant it in context to the entire 20+ year involvement.

That's exactly what you said. An exactly what I commented on.

I also posted the rest of the comment as I addressed it. You weren't talking generally. You were taking about MN. Why else mention it? You talked about a specific attack. One.

I know some MNers are really pro sanctions. And I would bet the vast majority were not posting here 20 years ago.

Again, people won't call for sanctions on our allies. Governments won't do it. People won't call for sanctions that put them into poverty. You can't lobby an mp to put US into sanctions. Everyone knows the US does what the fuck it wants and manages to get away with it. And lots people don't agree but either dont know what to do about it or can't do anything about it. Many of them will never have been on MN.

But I do believe lots if MNers were opposed to the UKs and Americas actions following 9/11. Lots pointed out other countries wouldn't get away with it without sanctions.

I actually dont know what your point about MN was at all. And why what happened here 20 years ago is relevant at all.

@BookkeeperBobby

Yes it is v like Ireland which makes all the bellyaching about it from our government worse. Zelenskiy has been quite content for his little band of neo Nazis to wreak absolute havoc on the border really up to all sorts displacing and killing and torturing it has been really bad for eight years. And you can argue that Russians shouldn't have been there but would you likewise argue that English shouldn't have been in the six counties. See it is not so straightforward.

Care to provide any evidence for this!

Less than a page! Not subtle

I do know that not all Russians agree with Putin and there are many firmly against this war. I have a lot of sympathy for them because they are living under a president who controls with fear. Having a dictator in charge is not something any British person can hope to understand.

I don't know what else you want me to say? The fact that there are some Russians opposed to the current regime/war does not change the fact that the Russian government and army are carrying out some truly atrocious war crimes in Ukraine. Any government that bombs a maternity hospital to name but one of many cowardly, cruel acts deserves to be condemned.

We should be sanctioning Russia and anything else in our power to aid Ukraine and get this war stopped. An end to the war will mean an end to Russian soldiers dying too.

@BookkeeperBobby

Point of order: Putin is not a madman and we can't defeat him while we say he is. He is in charge of the largest country in Europe. The largest country in the world by landmass. With all of its problematic borders and incursions into its zones and particular pressures on the region (eg it is a peacekeeping force in Armenia, bet you didn't know that, because no one in the UK gives a shit about that region) he is in charge. And he would not be able to be in charge of this massive diverse pulled at all sides nation if he were mentally ill. There are lots of toxic influences and interests on Russia the likes of which our own political leaders here in the UK would have no clue what to do with but they have been very happy Putin has dealt with them while funnelling his dirty money into the UK economy. He has been very useful for them. And he is not insane. If he were, he would have disappeared a long time ago.

Good try. This is like when we try to figure out if a serial killer is mad or evil. Who cares, there’s zero excuse.

@HomecomingKween

OP's agenda pretty clear now.

Exactly

Yet in that article a Russian describe Putin action as the insanity of one man. I'd say Putin is a madman and needs to be stopped.

Do you remember Yatsenyuk a few back actually saying the Soviet Union had invaded Nazi Germany?

I deplore Putin's war but I am not wrapping myself in a Ukraine flag or cheering on the fucking Azov battalion, either.

OMG the Russians are a peacekeeping force in Armenia (poor Armenia) --- just why are russian troops anywhere???/

We're a global community - the internet connects all of us, the world is quite quickly being destroyed by global warming as we speak and no one will have anything to fight for.

Why is Putin putting troops ANYWHERE - Russia is a huge mineral rich country - just get on with running it FFS

All this we didn't help Syria we didn't help Crimea - because we are utterly at a loss as to why that power-mad cruel man wants more and more territory.
Just get on with running Russia fgs.

@HomecomingKween

OP's agenda pretty clear now.

Yes, agree.

Why is Putin putting troops ANYWHERE

Perhaps because NATO has stationed troops all around him?

Do you know anything about the history of Armenia or why so many Armenians now live in Russia?

Honestly can't believe you're equating Zelensky with Putin. Of course, Zelensky is no angel and he wasn't doing a stellar job as president. But he's proved a man for the moment at least.

Yes, Ukraine has always flirted with nazism and nationalism, I guess as a counterweight to Sovietism and communism. Huge numbers collaborated with the Nazis in WW2 (Zelensky's own family were probably murdered by Ukrainians in the holocaust who were all too happy to do the nazis' dirty work) and there's even a statue to Bandera in Lviv. But, that said, they DID elect a Jewish and a Russian speaking PM. And it's not like nazism isn't a problem in Russia, equally their nationalist movement is racist, anti-semitic, anti gay, misogynistic and it's on the rise.

I think blaming it all on Putin is actually to ignore the Russian psyche. I mean, sure, information is controlled but many still wish for the days of the Soviet or Tzarist empire and fully support the invasion of Ulraine.

Yes, Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and there were sanctions. Yes, it was war, but it was a limited war and it was different. The Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia. Of course, this is not how you go abou tthings, but the people living there were actually OK with it. Same (to a lesser extent) with those eastern areas. What's going on now is different in intent, extent, intensity, damage. It's all out war and it's going way further than anything before.

I feel great sympathy for the ordinary russian people. This is not their fault and they are victims of the regime too.

[quote BookkeeperBobby]**@kittenkipping* thank you! Have you seen* the footage of Russian soldiers on the news? They are not all there. I don't know what's up with them, drugged or what, but they're not functioning properly. Russia has form for that ofc. Every war Russia wins including WWII (sorry to the UK patriots but it was Russia that won it) they win by churning line after line of boys to die until the enemy can't do any more. The Russian state treats its people most cruelly. And of course Russians know this. Of course they do. You would have to be a fool or a moron to think otherwise and Russians are neither. They know.[/quote]
The demography of Russia 80 years ago was very different to the demography of today.

After decades of low, even below-replacement, fertility there are not endless reserves of young men to sacrifice.

Look at this population pyramid. Look at the proportion of young men. Many of these will be only children. There is not the capacity for endless sacrifice of young men as per WW2.

@BookkeeperBobby

Yes it is v like Ireland which makes all the bellyaching about it from our government worse. Zelenskiy has been quite content for his little band of neo Nazis to wreak absolute havoc on the border really up to all sorts displacing and killing and torturing it has been really bad for eight years. And you can argue that Russians shouldn't have been there but would you likewise argue that English shouldn't have been in the six counties. See it is not so straightforward.

Your post shills the exact extreme neo Nazi propaganda that Putin has created to invade Ukraine. Children, their mothers, families, teenagers, people like us murdered. And for what?

Mumsnet for God's sake why is this thread still up?