I know that mumsnetters are very concerned and horrified about the war in Ukraine.

[BookkeeperBobby]

AIBU to ask them to read this article which ime is a fairly accurate account of the impact it has had on Russians? And indeed a fairly accurate account of the impact Putin has had on Russians, at a time when UK/EU/USA governments bolstered him?

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-russians-fleeing-putins-wartime-crackdown

@IncompleteSenten

I feel great sympathy for the ordinary russian people. This is not their fault and they are victims of the regime too.

Putin has huge popular support. As does the war.

@HomecomingKween

OP's agenda pretty clear now.

Ain't it just.

Mind you, AS shows the OP's pro-Putin stance has been ongoing since they joined MN just over 3 weeks ago.
Astroturfer's gonna turf.

Judging from twitter there seems to be a huge crossover with covid nutters and those who parrot this pro Russian bollocks.

He does?
Where does that info come from?
Is it actual support or "I don't want to vanish so I'm going to say I support" support?

@BookkeeperBobby

Yes it is v like Ireland which makes all the bellyaching about it from our government worse. Zelenskiy has been quite content for his little band of neo Nazis to wreak absolute havoc on the border really up to all sorts displacing and killing and torturing it has been really bad for eight years. And you can argue that Russians shouldn't have been there but would you likewise argue that English shouldn't have been in the six counties. See it is not so straightforward.

Zelenskiy's band of neo Nazis? You do realise Zelenskiy is Jewish?

I’ve heard twice now of Ukrainians who’ve spoken to relatives in Russia, who absolutely refuse to believe what’s happening. ‘We don’t do such things! We wouldn’t - it’s all lies!’

According to that, many of them believe only what they’re told via their strictly controlled media. And Putin is a ‘god’ who’s only looking after poor Russia’s interests.

Like Kim Jong-un then?

@Carpy899

Judging from twitter there seems to be a huge crossover with covid nutters and those who parrot this pro Russian bollocks.

This is historically a trend and derives in part from the huge Russian/right wing propaganda drive to destabilise democracies with well funded conspiracy theories, whether that be COVID, Ukraine or anything else. You'll see a lot more subtle 'wellboth sides are bad but...' creeping into comments soon too as that's a well known strategy.

@Carpy899

Judging from twitter there seems to be a huge crossover with covid nutters and those who parrot this pro Russian bollocks.

Yes, apparently the QAnon, moved onto vaccine deniers, now they're pro Russia.

@IncompleteSenten

He does? Where does that info come from? Is it actual support or "I don't want to vanish so I'm going to say I support" support?

It might be overestimated but there's no doubt that his support is increasing.

www.levada.ru/en/ratings/

And you can argue that Russians shouldn't have been there

... and consequently show your OP up for the drivel it was.

Grow up

@BookkeeperBobby

Also: the complete mindless irony of people in the UK - a country that voted for fucking Brexit and a Tory PM who told them "we're all in this together" FOR FUCKS SAKE - jawing on about brainwashed Russians ... nobody in Russia believes their politicians, not one single person. They are more than wise to them. Could do with a bit more of that here.

So you share an article (which was interesting to read so thanks at least for that) in order for us to understand that Russia is a nuanced country. To explain that there is dissent, people know what their leaders are, that it is not a one dimensional story. Something I hope most of us understand and I’m sure most of us feel concern and compassion for the Russian people too.

Then, in direct contradiction to what you’re asking us to understand about Russians, you categorise the whole of the UK as “mindless” Brexit voting Tory voters? When everyone knows how divisive both of those are in reality and that this too is nuanced. But you can happily lump us together as a country with shared thought?

And I’m not even going to dignify some of your other, more extreme comments with repeating them.

You’re just a sad little Russian shill OP. Just go away and kiss your poster of Putin.

I'm sure ordinary German citizens were also suffering badly during WW2. More so than Russian people today, in fact.
Didn't excuse the camps.

And ordinary Russian suffering pales in comparison to the atrocities committed in Ukraine today, especially in Mariupol. This place has "crime against humanity" written all over it.
No matter which way the war goes from there on, ordinary Russian people should be under no illusion that the rest of the world will neither forgive nor forget who the aggressor was in that story. And how popular Putin was back home. "Democratically" elected and all that.

No matter which way the war goes from there on, ordinary Russian people should be under no illusion that the rest of the world will neither forgive nor forget who the aggressor was in that story. And how popular Putin was back home. "Democratically" elected and all that.

Quite

[quote BookkeeperBobby]@FrecklesMalone Russians also lost vast numbers of people in WWII ofc. 27 million approximately although the true number will never be known. Those deaths stopped Hitler. Not plucky little Britain with its alcoholic faded grandiose PM who turned the troops on the workers. It was Russian boys' bodies piling up in the snow that put an end to the third Reich while Russian citizens dropped dead of starvation in the streets of st Petersburg. Without that, Britain would have been completely fucked.[/quote]
I'm not really British so don't hold nostalgic illusions about Britain. You have to ask why so many poor Russians died? The blame lies fairly equally between the horrific policies of the German third Reich and a Russian government who didn't care about the lives of their poorly equipped and trained soldiers. They used them as cannon fodder. However the idea that Russia was the liberator of Poland is a fucking joke as anyone that then had to live behind the Russian controlled iron curtains knows.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory - yeah I’m a hypocrite for saying it would be perfectly fair for other countries to sanction us to stop the Iraq war but not suggesting it myself. Or I’m self interested and don’t want to starve.

If HRW, Amnesty and Freedom House really all said (apparently exactly the same thing) about all of Ukraine sliding into lawless violence in 2018, please post links. I was there in that time and certainly not anything like my experience of the country.

@FrecklesMalone absolutely. Stalin did his absolute best to destroy Poland. They were no liberators.

So a Jewish Ukraine president is supporting a neo-nazi force

This his me baffled too. Zelensky is Jewish. His family were killed in the Holocaust. How or why would you think he is a neo-Nazi OP?

I totally agree that an entire nation shouldn’t be demonised for the actions of its government though. We would have to right off the whole of Israel, Afghanistan, North Korea, China which would be ridiculous as the majority of the citizens of these countries are just going about their lives without wishing harm on anyone, while their governments wreak chaos and misery.

@BookkeeperBobby your suggestion that Ukraine is like Ireland and Zelensky is a neo Nazi are pretty detached from reality. There is a debate to be had but a major tactic of Putin is disinformation and whataboutery (comes from Soviet Union originally). People are suffering horrendously in Ukraine and it’s a key fight for the self determination of Eastern Europeans. We should be wary of conspiracy theories and nonsense. That’s not debate.

I doubt anyone thinks all Russian people are bad or at fault anyway though. Of course they are not.

@Flyingteaspoon

I totally agree that an entire nation shouldn’t be demonised for the actions of its government though. We would have to right off the whole of Israel, Afghanistan, North Korea, China which would be ridiculous as the majority of the citizens of these countries are just going about their lives without wishing harm on anyone, while their governments wreak chaos and misery.

Exactly. And through history - the Germans, the British (the British empire was fucking brutal globally. How many people did we kill? How many people were proud of being British. Sun never sets. Rule Britannia. Blah blah blah) etc. We shouldn't as you say demonise entire populations. Nor should we cast the first stone when it comes to ordinary people not marching to their leaders, breaking down doors and booting them out when they commit atrocities or simply being apathetic letting wrongs go unchallenged. Or picking a powerless group and blaming them for the country's problems instead of looking to where the actual problem is.

Putin needs to be got rid of. He's dangerous. But it's his generals that have the chance to do it, not some poor bastard in Omsk just trying to make ends meet and feeling utterly powerless or believing the narrative they're being fed.

I don't think all Russian shoulder the blame but likewise It's far too simplistic to say this is all down to Putin. Many Russians, and I'm not talking about the oligarch class but rather the affluent middle classes, have done very well out of Putin's Russia over the years and have been happy to turn a blind eye to his crimes against their own people.