LGB vs LGBTQI etc

[Whoistheexpert]

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

We are repeatedly told...

By people lecturing , not studies

There are no studies available unfortunately, which is why these things are being collected in various threads

Absolutely it's actual risk not the presence of risk that matters

There is no evidence that Absolute risk is different between transwomen and men

So I will expect them to abide by sex based convention

And many do

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Why would you, or anyone, think that there exists a human demographic where no belonging individual has ever committed a crime?

The point is that males claiming to be women are as likely to commit the same violent sexual crimes as the rest of their sex class. The sex class that commit 98% of all sex offences. Meaning they are the same risk as other men. They should therefore not be exempt from the same safeguarding rules as other men just because they are trans. That means they should stay out of female only spaces.

People who spout the line that 'women commit crimes too' as an excuse to allow males into female spaces are intellectually dishonest. Women as a sex class just don't pose the same threat to other women that men do.

That thread was made because women are fucking sick of the pretence that this group of men are harmless and "no men would ever abuse self ID to attack women and children" and also sick of these very male crimes being disguised as being committed by 'women'. Funny how they are quick to drop the prefix to hide men's crimes.

Cecilia Djehne. In the interview, she notes that in fact: “The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality. As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group. The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.”

Suggestions, please learn how scientific method works. You, personally, are making a positive claim that this group of males is somehow less risk to women than other members of the male sex, you need to back it up, because without it, there is only your personal faith position.

No one needs to cite any studies until you do.

You have an ideology, you take a view of risk based on said ideology. Evidence it, or don't expect anyone to agree with you on it.

The point is that males claiming to be women are as likely to commit the same violent sexual crimes as the rest of their sex class. The sex class that commit 98% of all sex offences. Meaning they are the same risk as other men. They should therefore not be exempt from the same safeguarding rules as other men just because they are trans. That means they should stay out of female only spaces.

People who spout the line that 'women commit crimes too' as an excuse to allow males into female spaces are intellectually dishonest. Women as a sex class just don't pose the same threat to other women that men do.

Exactly.

@StScholastica

My lesbian cousin was punched in the face by a trans woman because she rejected her advances. She's a lesbian, the trans woman had a penis. She needed surgery for a broken jaw. Transwoman was never found to be prosected and is still out there somewhere.

A straight man broke my jaw. A gay woman broke my nose.

So that means all straight and gay people are trash right?

Look at the dates of that study. Back from when 'trans' meant a few homosexual transexuals and the odd transvestite.

Completely irrelevant to today where any man can just say they are a woman. No medical diagnosis of dysphoria required.
Most keep their fully intact penis. All wanting access to female spaces.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Suggestions, please learn how scientific method works. You, personally, are making a positive claim that this group of males is somehow less risk to women than other members of the male sex, you need to back it up, because without it, there is only your personal faith position.

No one needs to cite any studies until you do.

No, I have made no claim. (If you think I have made a claim I expect you to quote me - please do this now)

Others are making a claim that transwomen offend at the same rates as women.

That is their claim; it is their burden to prove it.

The lead author of the one larger study that has included this in their remit has given explanation as to why, it the latter half of their study, their participants did not have a male pattern of criminality.

They attributed this reduced criminality to accessing better mental health care in the face of ongoing discrimination and the social stigma of being trans lessening over time.

Out of interest what work are you doing vis a vis reducing social stigma, to encourage this improved picture of reduced criminality which will benefit all women, people in general?

transwomen offend at the same rates as men

A straight man broke my jaw.
A gay woman broke my nose.

Because you rejected their advances? That's the point here. She's documenting an experience that many people say "never happens" and denied was a thing when a BBC article was published about it.

That is their claim; it is their burden to prove it.

No it is not their claim. MTF trans people are male. All of them.

Therefore without evidence to the contrary there is no reason to single them out as different to other males. You can try to reverse it all you like, it doesn't fly. You are the one implying that they are different. If you aren't, you will accept that there is no reason to believe they are different in terms of statistical risk to women and girls.

Hope that helps. Night night.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

That is their claim; it is their burden to prove it.

No it is not their claim. MTF trans people are male. All of them.

Therefore without evidence to the contrary there is no reason to single them out as different to other males. You can try to reverse it all you like, it doesn't fly. You are the one implying that they are different. If you aren't, you will accept that there is no reason to believe they are different in terms of statistical risk to women and girls.

Hope that helps. Night night.

Shame.

I have quoted a researcher there that the likes of Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock and Professor Alice Sullivan re happy to refer to - and GC feminists normally support their views.

This researcher has given a clear indication of what might help to decrease criminality - reducing social stigma and discrimination of trans people - why would you not want to pay attention to their advice and benefit women and all people by so doing?

Maybe this will shut up the transphobic people on here, but I doubt it because they are so full of hate.
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.html
There was a study before where trans brains were compared to the brains of the bio sex post mortem. It found that trans women brains was the same as bio female brains and transmen brain was the same as bio male brains.

But some people are so full of hate they don't see that trans people are human and have to endure so much.
Children are not given gender reassignment surgery on the NHS. Children are not given replacement hormone therapy on the NHS. You have to be 18 to receive them.
You have to go through years of mental health assessments and other tests before you can have surgery or hormones.

@Ijustreallywantacat

I would hope that most males respect the wishes of women to have single sex spaces. The idea that genital inspections are required is a complete nonsense, very few transwomen pass.

But Jen DID pass. She went to the toilet without incident! She only got found out because she TOLD PEOPLE.

I would assume they would want to use the mens. As they are not a risk to men that's their decision.

No, no. According to people on this thread, you should ONLY use the toilet that is in accordance with your biological sex.
So, let's say those men, or perhaps the lovely Brian attached, agrees with you. They believe that because they are a biological female, they should use the female toilets.
You are in the toilet, washing your hands. Brian walks in. What do you do?

If someone who appeares very male, but is in fact female, uses the woman's toilets, that's legitimate. And may be be the right choice in some cases.

It's also possible that the individual might have someone ask if they are in the right place, and have to say that yes, they are a biological woman. That is the downside of medical transition but doesn't have to be a big deal.

Realistically however, it's unlikely that such a situation will come up. Those individuals will use the men's toilet without incident in daily life. Where it would make a difference, potentially, is if said person is in a prison, or needs certain types of medical care, or wants to compete in some sort of paralympic type sport.

But none of that tells us anything about why gender is supposedly the same thing as sexuality.

@Allandnothing

‘ Well that’s what some men are doing when they’re saying they’re women, ’

Indeed, but that doesn’t mean kicking out the ‘T’ from LGBT - predators are predators, and they are mainly heterosexual men living in the heterosexual community and abusing women.

That's not the point at all.

The question is, why would gender identity be grouped together with sexuality. It's not "kicking out". It's asking why they would be grouped together as an "identity" in the first place.

It's the same with the "I". It has nothing to do with sexuality, it's a medical condition and their experiences and political interests are quite different. They also do not want to be part of the LGBTQI+, and have said so through their own organizations.

Do you also object to that?

*Others are making a claim that transwomen offend at the same rates as women.

That is their claim; it is their burden to prove it.*

That way of proving means society takes the explicit risk of transwomen retaining male patterns of offence and accepts women will be the victim of whatever these male people do. It states any trauma caused to women, any assault, any hurt, is acceptable collateral damage in gathering evidence on the statement what the rate of offence is for males who claim a transwoman identity.

Why should women consent to what is basically a large scale societal experiment and pay the price when/if it is proven transidentifying males are just as bad as men?

Governments have the duty to keep all their citizens safe, they are already failing women in this. Who on earth would argue to take the risk to make this worse?

@Boredoutmymind

Maybe this will shut up the transphobic people on here, but I doubt it because they are so full of hate. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.html There was a study before where trans brains were compared to the brains of the bio sex post mortem. It found that trans women brains was the same as bio female brains and transmen brain was the same as bio male brains.

But some people are so full of hate they don't see that trans people are human and have to endure so much.
Children are not given gender reassignment surgery on the NHS. Children are not given replacement hormone therapy on the NHS. You have to be 18 to receive them.
You have to go through years of mental health assessments and other tests before you can have surgery or hormones.

What studies on transgende brains have shown is that under the influence of the cross sex hormones they take, certain characteristics change. Like size.

However, every single brain study also has the same disclaimer: brains are elastic and invidual and there is no categorisation of brain patterns into male or female brains. There is zero way of stating a transidentifying male persons brain is a 'female' brain as there is no way to classify brainpatterns as female.

Hope this helps.

@Boredoutmymind

Maybe this will shut up the transphobic people on here, but I doubt it because they are so full of hate. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.html There was a study before where trans brains were compared to the brains of the bio sex post mortem. It found that trans women brains was the same as bio female brains and transmen brain was the same as bio male brains.

But some people are so full of hate they don't see that trans people are human and have to endure so much.
Children are not given gender reassignment surgery on the NHS. Children are not given replacement hormone therapy on the NHS. You have to be 18 to receive them.
You have to go through years of mental health assessments and other tests before you can have surgery or hormones.

Doesn't that study (I have seen it referred to on the GIRES website) come with a disclaimer that those results cannot be used to diagnosed transgrnderism.

Because....what if you are trans and you get a brain scan and your results come back with 100% male brain? What then?

Also, as PP says, brains are plastic and neural pathways are made from birth depending on environment and there are not definitive characteristics of male and female brains anyway.

@Boredoutmymind

Maybe this will shut up the transphobic people on here, but I doubt it because they are so full of hate. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.html There was a study before where trans brains were compared to the brains of the bio sex post mortem. It found that trans women brains was the same as bio female brains and transmen brain was the same as bio male brains.

But some people are so full of hate they don't see that trans people are human and have to endure so much.
Children are not given gender reassignment surgery on the NHS. Children are not given replacement hormone therapy on the NHS. You have to be 18 to receive them.
You have to go through years of mental health assessments and other tests before you can have surgery or hormones.

Really! So there is, at last, a medical method to physically diagnose trans people? So we can check whether potential Karen Whites can be in womens prisons and hospital wards? Whether Irish surgeons should be making millions out of slicing the breasts off 13 year old girls? Hurrah! Why on EARTH is this not being done? Oh....

God this thread is depressing.

Women wanting to exclude males from single sex spaces to ensure safety and dignity are not transphobic.

It's no wonder misogynists object to threads such as the one FWR pointing out that that people are harmed by men who claim to be women. Women actually being harmed are just collateral damage. NOT ONE SINGLE incident should have happened in a safe space if the law were being upheld.

I'm sick of the male entitlement. These men might want to be women, some might think they are women but they sure as hell don't like or respect us. The ones that do know that this is not good enough.

Back to the lady brain argument now?
A transwomen's brain cells will all contain male DNA. As will every other cell in their body.

Wishful thinking doesn't alter ones sexed body.

I agree @lifeturnsonadime

It’s also awful for the trans community members who support proper safeguarding to be lumped together with these entitled misogynists who call themselves trans activists.

And yes of course people from all demographics commit violent crime but 98 % of sexual assault is committed by males. There is absolutely no good reason that we should give up single sex spaces on the basis that 2% of such crimes are committed by women.

There is no logic to arguments that men who identify as women are less likely to offend.

Women should not have to take a risk. This is not to mention the fact that certain sectors of women are excluded by the inclusion of males for religious or other reasons.

Several gay friends reject the constant association with the T. They say they just don't identify with it and no, the issues aren't the same.

Wow, we're on ladybrains being proved by science now

Back to the OPs question - how do TQI++ belong with LGB? Why is it transphobic for LGB to have separate organisations, lobby for different for different things, when sexuality and identity are different things?

It's like me starting an organisation for French nationals living in the UK, and then adding people who would like to be French, people who are thinking of a holiday in France, and people with a French-sounding last name. And then being called phobic for not centring Italians.