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LGB vs LGBTQI etc

518 replies

Whoistheexpert · 22/03/2022 20:04

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 18:28

People without an agenda don't attend an LGB Alliance conference wearing a wire.

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 18:34

It's horrible to be with n the receiving end of be and a rant, isn't it

bellinisurge · 23/03/2022 18:35

With n? On the

suggestionsplease1 · 23/03/2022 18:43

"The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group founded in 2019 in opposition to LGBT rights charity Stonewall's policies on transgender issues"

(Wikipedia ) is that statement disputed?

That's not comparable at all to disabilities rights groups etc- they haven't formed in opposition anyone, to able-bodied people rights etc.

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 18:45

People without an agenda don't attend an LGB Alliance conference wearing a wire.

I don't give a fig if she had an agenda. She did not deserve that vile abuse. As she has said, she made it through the whole conference almost, and to the toilet a couple of times, without anybody noticing she is trans. People only knew because she told them. It makes me worry what LGB alliance people want us to do to gain access. How do we police it? Should I have to flash my vagina every time I want a wee? Would you be happy for a very masculine transman to use the ladies? Wouldn't you question them?

I'll also ask again, how is it fair or right to have a whole conference ABOUT transpeople, without inviting them? What about Jen, who is bisexual? It's not LGB really is it. It's LG, but only certain LG. Only LGs who agree to exclude everyone else.

As for the recording, she hasn't released it, she's making sure she's not doing anything illegal. Good. Its neither here nor there.

MangyInseam · 23/03/2022 18:49

@BiBabbles

Whether it's 'hijacking' depends on how it's used. Either can quickly become erasure when they're used to just treat us all as a lump.

While at times a handy shorthand when discussing multiple groups, I dislike either acronym when it's used without any clarification or acceptance of how limiting it is - even within one 'letter', there are dozens of communities and obviously many individuals with a wide variety of opinions so questions like "Don't LGB community feel" erases we're not and have never been one community and each one has people who aren't going to agree. I hate how we're treated as if it means we're meant to be one politically or of one mind.

It's one thing when either have been used by people who are working in solidarity and are choosing to identify together (much as POC started as) or in some demographic data analysis when it's open how limiting that kind of lumping is, but that's rarely how it's used, especially in the media where it's more used as a marketing ploy or used to beat how we should feel or act about something.

And trans has become a catch-all for so many different groups, that it's meaningless to make any sort of generalization whether it's in the shared history of homosexual and bisexual what we would now call trans people or how they feel and act or want to be seen. The random teenager who identifies as trans doesn't have the social power to 'hijack' anything. That's not where my ire on these changes lie. I do think Stonewall and other groups with more political sway have a lot to answer for in their attempts to remain relevant as society has changed.

This is true of most groups. It's not like all women think the same thing, people with hearing loss, Asians, whatever.

A group like SW is primarily a political lobby organization. And political lobby that represents a group is going to have to tread around the fact that they will have diverse views in many areas, so the lobbying will have to be very focused on what is acutely important to whatever thing unites the group. Do Douglas Murray and Julie Bindle have the same political views? No, of course not.

I think a huge part of the problem is that these groupings are now considered "identities" and the lobby organizations see themselves as in some sense defining the identities. It's not that SW represents certain areas of concern for a variety of people who just happen to all be attracted to people of the same sex. They represent a class of persons, an identity.

My local Pride organization is hugely politically active on all sorts of things, but the fact is lots of homosexual people do not agree with some of the things it supports. (My good friend, a gay man, was apoplectic recently when they were boycotting the library for having books the organization didn't approve of, for example.) Most of those people just remain totally uninvolved, which would be fine except that the organization claims to speak on their behalf.

I tend to think that some of this is a power grab, but also maybe the natural result because people who are less inclined to see being gay as central to their sense of self may be less inclined to spend a lot of time within those kinds of organizations?

But in any case, identity groups are a problem, politically speaking, in large part because they do reduce people to these cardboard cut-outs.

Beancounter1 · 23/03/2022 18:51

@Whatsnewpussyhat

I mean you've have to be pretty stupid / thinking very strangely as a man to be considering self IDing as a woman in order to abuse women at the moment wouldn't you? That's seems to be the first thought that is entering many people's heads about transwomen anyway, it's hardly a good disguise

You'd have to be pretty stupid and ridiculously naive to think men wouldn't do ANYTHING to access victims.
It's the perfect 'disguise'. People so fucking scared of being called 'transphobic' that all basic safeguarding and common sense is going out the bloody window the second a man says he's a woman.

Just what I was going to say.

The naivety of some trans supporters is so astounding that I do wonder if they actually believe what they are saying, or are just trying to score points.

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 18:51

That's not comparable at all to disabilities rights groups etc- they haven't formed in opposition anyone, to able-bodied people rights etc.

As far as I know abled bodied people haven't decided to claim to be disabled, at least not in the mainstream. Were an organisation to set itself up to promote access for able bodied people into disabled groups then I would hope that disability groups would act in the same way to protect the interests of abled bodied people.

Don't forget that Nancy Kelley compared lesbians who are single sex attracted to sexual racists, no wonder some lesbians felt that Stonewall doesn't represent their interests and want to oppose policies which brand them bigots and result in some of them, e.g. Alison Bailey losing their jobs.

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 18:51

Happy for this bloke to use the ladies, yep? No questioning of him I assume.

LGB vs LGBTQI etc
lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 18:55

I don't give a fig if she had an agenda. She did not deserve that vile abuse. As she has said, she made it through the whole conference almost, and to the toilet a couple of times, without anybody noticing she is trans

Jen contacted the venue to check if the facilities were single sex was told there were and still decided to use them wearing a wire.

Almost if Jen was provoking a reaction to post on twitter.

Do you share the same objections to the abuse, rape and death against women that are frequently received for women saying that men cannot be women? Or is your concern just for a transwoman using spaces reserved for women whilst wearing a wire?

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 18:55

He's welcome in the ladies in this world of yours too.

LGB vs LGBTQI etc
MangyInseam · 23/03/2022 18:58

@suggestionsplease1

"The LGB Alliance is a British advocacy group founded in 2019 in opposition to LGBT rights charity Stonewall's policies on transgender issues"

(Wikipedia ) is that statement disputed?

That's not comparable at all to disabilities rights groups etc- they haven't formed in opposition anyone, to able-bodied people rights etc.

They oppose the redefinition of the term homosexual, which certainly caused some of the impetus to set up a different group. But yes, in the general sense it is disputed. It was set up because SW was no longer able to represent gay and lesbian people on issues where there was a conflict with gender, identity issues because they now were required to represent both.

What do you think lobby groups are for? They are to represent a particular constituency, not some kind of bollocks validation.

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 18:59

Any female can use the female facilities.

Posting photos of transmen to try to prove that women should accept fully intact males in single sex facilities isn't going to wash.

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 19:00

Do you share the same objections to the abuse, rape and death against women that are frequently received for women saying that men cannot be women?

Of course I do, but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about this incident. Do you believe that her using the toilet means that she deserved to be called a nonce and a pervert?

How would you police it? Genital check? X Ray machine? A pat down? Seems the toilet guards were sleeping on the job.

MangyInseam · 23/03/2022 19:00

@lifeturnsonadime

That's not comparable at all to disabilities rights groups etc- they haven't formed in opposition anyone, to able-bodied people rights etc.

As far as I know abled bodied people haven't decided to claim to be disabled, at least not in the mainstream. Were an organisation to set itself up to promote access for able bodied people into disabled groups then I would hope that disability groups would act in the same way to protect the interests of abled bodied people.

Don't forget that Nancy Kelley compared lesbians who are single sex attracted to sexual racists, no wonder some lesbians felt that Stonewall doesn't represent their interests and want to oppose policies which brand them bigots and result in some of them, e.g. Alison Bailey losing their jobs.

Also, there are lots of groups that advocate for specific groups of disabled people, as well as generalized disability rights groups.

The difference is no one is making disingenuous claims that this means they are excluding, say, wheelchair users from groups for the blind, etc.

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 19:03

Any female can use the female facilities.

Right. So if the above men asked you which way the toilets were, would you point to the men's or the women's? Or would insist on a quick grope first?

If the above men walked in to the ladies toilet, would you allow them to use the facilities in place?

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 19:03

*in peace

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 19:05

@Ijustreallywantacat

Do you share the same objections to the abuse, rape and death against women that are frequently received for women saying that men cannot be women?

Of course I do, but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about this incident. Do you believe that her using the toilet means that she deserved to be called a nonce and a pervert?

How would you police it? Genital check? X Ray machine? A pat down? Seems the toilet guards were sleeping on the job.

I said I didn't agree with the language used. i do believe Jen deliberately set out to entrap someone by attending the conference wired and using facilities which were single sex after checking that the facilities were single sex in advance.

I would hope that most males respect the wishes of women to have single sex spaces. The idea that genital inspections are required is a complete nonsense, very few transwomen pass.

whiteroseredrose · 23/03/2022 19:07

So you aren't concerned about being called a bigot for only being attracted to people of the same sex, not same gender?

lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 19:07

@Ijustreallywantacat

Any female can use the female facilities.

Right. So if the above men asked you which way the toilets were, would you point to the men's or the women's? Or would insist on a quick grope first?

If the above men walked in to the ladies toilet, would you allow them to use the facilities in place?

I would assume they would want to use the mens. As they are not a risk to men that's their decision.
lifeturnsonadime · 23/03/2022 19:08

Anyway bowing out of this since it's gone off topic for the OP.

Ijustreallywantacat · 23/03/2022 19:13

I would hope that most males respect the wishes of women to have single sex spaces. The idea that genital inspections are required is a complete nonsense, very few transwomen pass.

But Jen DID pass. She went to the toilet without incident! She only got found out because she TOLD PEOPLE.

I would assume they would want to use the mens. As they are not a risk to men that's their decision.

No, no. According to people on this thread, you should ONLY use the toilet that is in accordance with your biological sex.
So, let's say those men, or perhaps the lovely Brian attached, agrees with you. They believe that because they are a biological female, they should use the female toilets.
You are in the toilet, washing your hands. Brian walks in. What do you do?

LGB vs LGBTQI etc
user1471443411 · 23/03/2022 19:22

I don't understand why the Q, I and A are there either. Queer just means gay, as far as I know. Intersex is a development disorder and nothing to do with sexuality, and asexual is a lack of sexuality (I can sort of understand this being included, as a recognition that not everyone has one, like religion).

Beancounter1 · 23/03/2022 19:29

@Ijustreallywantacat

Do you share the same objections to the abuse, rape and death against women that are frequently received for women saying that men cannot be women?

Of course I do, but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about this incident. Do you believe that her using the toilet means that she deserved to be called a nonce and a pervert?

How would you police it? Genital check? X Ray machine? A pat down? Seems the toilet guards were sleeping on the job.

This is a really interesting question and one that I have been pondering.

In practice, no-one is going to 'police' who visits which toilet (unless of course they are making a video for twitter).

But what the single-sex rule does is make it possible to object and complain if a man does enter the female toilets. Without such a rule women would have no right to object. We would have to put up with it with no legal or regulatory recourse.

The rule also acts as a deterrent. At present there is nothing to physically stop a man going into the women's toilets to assault someone, but it doesn't usually happen because of the taboo against men being seen to go into the 'ladies room'. At present such a predator generally chooses some other location. Without the taboo or rule in place, more predatory men would feel more comfortable being seen going into the female toilets.

On the whole I think most women don't object (and historically haven't objected) to what you might call 'genuine' transwomen (the type with dysphoria who make every effort to 'pass') using the female toilets. The social convention is that we all turn a blind eye and mind our own business if nobody is causing any trouble.

But if an aggressive male fetishist in a dress comes in demanding to share make-up or engage in his idea of 'girly talk', women at present have the right to complain (to whoever is in charge of the facilities) about his presence and get him removed. Or at least we did have that right until a few years ago... I'm not sure how successful such a complaint would actually be now.

Beancounter1 · 23/03/2022 19:31

@Ijustreallywantacat

Any female can use the female facilities.

Right. So if the above men asked you which way the toilets were, would you point to the men's or the women's? Or would insist on a quick grope first?

If the above men walked in to the ladies toilet, would you allow them to use the facilities in place?

You are being disingenuous. Why would the transmen pictured want to use the female toilets? They wouldn't.
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