DF giving £200k to DB

[PercyGoat]

DH & I own our house (mortgaged). We both earn good money and we work hard for it. We lack for nothing and we do treat ourselves.

My older DB lives in a house share. He hates the idea of owing money to anyone. He has a big deposit already but not enough money to buy something outright.

DF called me a few days ago. He is about to retire and his pension is not enough to cover his bills. He owns some assets (~£500k plus) in addition to main house but he does not have enough cash from pension each month. He said he also has cash savings but reluctant to spend. He did not ask but I said - don't worry i can transfer you £500 each month to help out.

Today, DM called me and said she had an argument with DF. DF is using his cash and selling some assets to buy DB £200k to buy a flat outright.

AIBU to be angry?

Why are you parenting your parents? When did you get that job. Either you Mum or you Dad must be act like a child and be dumping their emotional shit on you.
Your Mum is ringing you to you about mean Dad's behaviour so that you will fix it for her.

@Blossomtoes

I'd also be pretty unimpressed by your DB being given 200k for being an idle waster and you nothing

OP hasn’t said her brother’s an “idle waster”. Why would OP’s dad give her anything when she’s well off enough to offer him £6k a year?

So she is to be punished for being careful with money by not being treated equally by her father? I thought only the Government did that, penalised those of us who have worked hard and saved at the same time propping up the lazy wastrels.

Agreed. I find it rather worrying that he is 'informing' your mum of the plan when in fact if they're married those assets are jointly owned and not just his. That smacks of financial abuse tbh.

I would also have a conversation with him, say it's unfair, say you're upset, ask why he needed £500 a month from you if he can afford to give £200K to your brother (!) and see what he says.

@30mph

Surely these are marital assets? What is your mother doing about it?

As far as I understand, "marital assets" is concept that only applies in the context of divorce. There is no difference between a married and a single person when it comes to spending savings held in their own name, they can do what they like.

I find it rather worrying that he is 'informing' your mum of the plan when in fact if they're married those assets are jointly owned and not just his.

Legally, anything in his own name is his. He can do what he likes. (Morally might be another matter.)

There's no such thing as assets being automatically joint because you are married.

@ivykaty44

You have every right to be angry. Your father didn't refuse your money and then is gifting this to someone else - its' deceitful. I'd be furious

^ I totally agree with this, very deceitful, obviously stop transferring this

WHY hasn’t your brother got a mortgage, does he have unstable income etc or does he really believe he has a right to not pay a mortgage when most people have to ? (He’s also foolish if that’s the case because interest rates are low and homes appreciate: so he’s a fool)

There are a few issues, and id raise them with your parents via your mum

1- now is not a good time necessarily to liquidate assets that have taken a lifetime to build : your dad should seek advice
2- your dad passing on funds to your DB might be wise from an IHT point of view, but what provision will be made for you?
3- related to point 2, if the solution is ‘oh we will write our will so @PercyGoat gets £200k more then’ there is no guarantee there will be any money then, PLUS I’d rather than £200k now than in up to 30 years (assuming your DM might stay in her home) when it will buy a lot less

In your situation OP, if your dad is hell bent in buying a flat for your DB, and you are ‘doing well’, I’d ask that all the remaining estate be split between your DC as they may need money at their stage of life & means you can enjoy your own retirement without worry

I think that’s ‘fair’ as your brother will by then have enjoyed decades of mortgage free home ownership

But really, the issue is both your DF and your cheeky arse of a DB (who should be getting a mortgage )

Agree your dad has deep pockets & short arms: he plans to be generous at YOUR expense

I wouldn't be arsed, my parents have helped my brother out over the yrs, I was none the wiser. Now I know I'm not arsed.

In the end, it's your dad's money he can do what he likes.

DF and DM have state and private pensions. They are not poor. All assets are held in DF's name even though they are joint marital assets acquired through funds generated from a family business.

This are the OP's words.
Joint marital assets that he has kept in HIS name and is planning on liquidating and giving away WITHOUT his wife's agreement.

That is financial abuse to me.
The OP's mother should seek legal advice.
Her father sounds awful.

Your DM has no security/assets in her own name? Your DF is taking from you to give (in a roundabout way) to your DB?

Reading this, I feel like we have stepped back a 150 years, and the woman and all their assets, are deemed to be the possession of the closest man in their lives (father, then husband/brother if father has passed, and woman is unmarried).

I genuinely feel sorry for your DM in all this, OP.

As for your DB situation - stay out of it. I get the impression that your DF is not liking/listening to your DM's opinion (his own wife), and so he won't listen to yours, and any opinion you have will just cause conflict and arguments.
Stay out of it, but stop giving your DF money. If he decides to go against your DM's wishes, and give your DB the money, then there is sadly not much you can do about it (even your DM many not be able to do anything about it, as it is all in your DF's name, but I'm not too sure about that one).
Instead, put some money aside each much (if you are able to), in an account in your own name, but be willing to assist DM if she ever needs it.

I hope this all works out for you all.

Even if the OP's father didn't survive the 7 years, the brother would only have to find 40% of the £200K

No, it would come out of the OP's DF's estate, not from your brother.
Plus as PP says there is a sliding scale.

@Getoff

I find it rather worrying that he is 'informing' your mum of the plan when in fact if they're married those assets are jointly owned and not just his.

Legally, anything in his own name is his. He can do what he likes. (Morally might be another matter.)

There's no such thing as assets being automatically joint because you are married.

When you’re married, the law in England and Wales considers that any assets you acquire during the marriage also belong to your husband or wife. So, for example, if you contribute towards a pension during your marriage, your spouse is entitled to a share of it.

Non-matrimonial assets typically include things like inheritance, family businesses and property that was purchased before the marriage or after separation.

Can we be sure he wasn't planning on repaying the £500 pm that op is giving him until he's freed up some assets, or that he won't update his will accordingly. There just seems to be so much jumping up and down on such skimpy information. Even op hasn't spoken to her dad or brother about this to get the details. Her dad must be quite good with money so may well have a plan that doesn't involve pissing his daughter off and favouring his son.

All assets were acquired after marriage. I would say 90% of assets are under DF's name. DM owns some assets but I don't have all the details.

There is no provision for DB to repay any of the £200k. I am certain of this. DB does not do any kind of debt. He is not even on a phone contract.

My DF is not stupid with money. He is quite successful. In his own way, I'm sure that he is seeing it as some kind of equality between his children.

However, he should not have accepted my offer of £500/month. I am in essence subsidising DB through DF. Anyway, at least I'm stopping that.

only 10% of people ever need to pay for care’. Don’t think that figure is right

It is right. I checked - as I always do - before I posted it.

It is though your own father is using you. I would be hurt. Stop the direct debt

I cannot speak with DB about this situation. When it comes to money, he pretends not to understand. He will gladly take the money!

Please don't feel stupid about this... or at least please don't feel alone. I have a sibling who has done exactly the same. I waived 150k of inheritance to my poor sibling who just finds numbers and money sooooooo confusing because just not money minded at all and oh dear that's why no money, can't cope etc etc. And whole family system supported and reinforced this idea that oh dear poor sibling, never been able to cope as well as you have and just doesn't understand money etc...

Also has just never stuck at a full-time job they find really boring because, hey, why would you when your family are going to give you hundreds of thousands of pounds?

It's why my advice before was... just accept this is the attitude of your DF. It's actually more about your DF feeling shit about how his DC has turned out and trying to make good on the failings there. It's not because your DF doesn't love you as much.

But also... see it for what it is. And don't accept the bullshit anymore.

I can't undo what I wholeheartedly agreed - indeed volunteered - to do and ultimately I have to accept that inheritance money was not actually 'my' money in any case... but I have stopped a regular support payment of £100 a month I was giving to my sibling. And got called 'a bit mean' for it but I didn't rise to that (I'd had some eye-opening therapy by that point) and in the end without me saying anything more it kind of became the unacknowledged elephant in the room that sibling is a piss-taker and has been too pandered to for too long.

UPDATE: Thank you for everyone who has taken the time to comment.

I spoke with DM (who was originally against the idea). She said that DF has explained to her it was the right thing to do for inheritance tax purposes, and she actually agrees after looking at the figures. DB is living in a house share and they really want to see him in his own house. And for the bombshell... the £200k and an additional £100k gifted/saved over the years will be used as deposit towards a proper house for him!!!

So DB ends up with a bigger deposit and potentially more expensive house than me. I know it's not a competition... but I worked since I was 15. DB did not work a single day in his life until he was 35!!!

I know I sound grabby... but I'm the one who has always helped in the family business. Anyway... I'm distancing myself from the whole situation as there is nothing I can do.

@BambinaJAS

£200k is far over the gift limits. Your DB would have to pay tax on that income.

The only way this works is if your DF buys the house himself (cash), and puts your DB on the deed.

Totally incorrect advice which should be ignored.

@SeasonFinale DF has an accountant. There will be inheritance tax on the £200k if DF lives for 7 years.

If there is a family business that you have helped in (does that mean you work there now or just ad hoc help?) perhaps they intend to leave the business solely to you and not your brother?

[quote PercyGoat]@SeasonFinale DF has an accountant. There will be inheritance tax on the £200k if DF lives for 7 years.[/quote]
The actual comment by the pp is incorrect. The gift is indeed a PET and were DF to die within 7 years it gives rise to IHT liability within the estate. However there is no gift limit just implications of various amounts given. In the way that pp wrote their comment it is incorrect advice.

OP did they have a plan to make sure that you inherited a similar amount?

Did you tell them how it made you feel?

Do your parents have a care plan in place?

I expect it’s the same as most people’s - sell the house. It’s how most people fund care if they need it.