Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Two reasons:

1. It's too complicated. You'd have to screen every athlete for bone density, muscle:fat ratio, fast twitch muscle, lung size, haemoglobin level, bone size, Q angle and a jillion other things, and then create an algorithm combining them all for each sport. Fancy doing it? And how will you account for women's greater amount of breast tissue and menstruation?

2. It makes no difference because the men will still be the ones who get through anyway, since the whole issue is their comprehensive athletic advantage based on all these factors. You'll just have no women champions, and ultimate women losing out to crap men.

Do you really think people are against this because they just hate trans people?

Widdlin, that is not what matters. Height and weight are only outward signs of disparity. What really matters is on the inside of the body, lung capacity, fast twitch muscle fibres, size of heart, bone structure, blood oxygenation. The only way to put 'like against like' as you phrased it above is to have male and female categories.

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

For the bazilionth time absolutely no one wants to ban trans ppl from sport. They simply want them to compete against their own sex

Yes Lia would be welcome to compete against men and still have long hair and wear a one piece. They wouldn't be in the top races though, because they aren't good enough. And would Lia be concerned about feeling threatened by the men? Deal with the men, it's not the women's team's problem.

@WiddlinDiddling

... height, weight AND achievement/ability. Not just height and weight.

Then you pitch like with like, because yes, height or weight alone or even in combination, isn't the only factor.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

Nobody's talking about banning them. They can compete in their correct sex class.

@Boredoutmymind I think we can have a discussion without shouting transphobia as a shutdown. It’s so childish and misogynistic. I think it’s ok to ask questions about this. You’re assertion of ‘ do some research’ is pointless unless you state what exactly your research was. I think you’ll find that there is two sexes and many genders just for the record.

I for one feel it’s unfair. Lia is a fabulous Trans women. Why is that such a bad thing? Why do we have to pretend it’s not true? She feels like a women, so has taken steps to live that life. We can’t magic her into a biological women, but I why should we? Why can’t there be Trans sports? Why can’t we fight for people to live however they choose with out fear but without oppressing others in order to do so. I’d really love to live in a world we’re we aren’t hunted down for saying so. It’s as if we’re living in a modern day version of the emperor’s new clothes.

@WiddlinDiddling

... height, weight AND achievement/ability. Not just height and weight.

Then you pitch like with like, because yes, height or weight alone or even in combination, isn't the only factor.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

Like with like?

Like males with other males, regardless of their personal religion, sexuality, gender identity, or taste in music?

extract

Jeremy Morris, then a doctoral student and now an assistant professor at Wofford College, designed an experiment with Carrier, doctoral student Jenna Link and associate professor James C. Martin to explore thesexual dimorphism, or physical differences between men and women, of punchingstrength. It's already known that males' upper bodies, on average, have 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than females'. But it's not known why.

"The general approach to understanding why sexual dimorphism evolves," Morris says, "is to measure the actual differences in the muscles or the skeletons of males and females of a given species, and then look at the behaviors that might be driving those differences."

Cranking through a punch

To test their hypothesis the researchers had to measure punching strength, but carefully. If participants directly punched a bag or other surface, they risked hand injury. Instead, the researchers rigged up a hand crank that would mimic the motions of a punch. They also measured participants' strength in pulling a line forward over their head, akin to the motion of throwing a spear. This tested an alternative hypothesis that males' upper body strength may have developed for the purpose of throwing or spear hunting.

Twenty men and 19 women participated. "We had them fill out an activity questionnaire," Morris says, "and they had to score in the 'active' range. So, we weren't getting couch potatoes, we were getting people that were very fit and active."

But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman.

phys.org/news/2020-02-males-powerful.html

Totally agree with OP.

Someone born a biological male should not be competing against women.

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

Oh come on, no one is banning anyone from competing at sport.

Wouldn't it be Stunning and Brave if Thomas had competed in men's swimming. That would be pushing boundaries without ruining women's sport.

If Lia Thomas was a woman nobody would give a shit about their feelings and we would't be having this conversation.

This is a good thread from Emma Hilton about what happens if mainstream men's sport is even the teeniest bit threatened.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1504785589584998472

@WiddlinDiddling

... height, weight AND achievement/ability. Not just height and weight.

Then you pitch like with like, because yes, height or weight alone or even in combination, isn't the only factor.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

There we go, that's the reason for all the crowbarring and twisting around why sex classes don't work : because TW want to be in female sports. That's it. That's the aim. The justification attempts are just trying to make it look more reasonable.

Thomas was competing perfectly well in their sex category. I don't believe females should lose access to anything so that male people can take their preferred best choice from everything. Because that's male supremacism. The world does not revolve around male people.

@WiddlinDiddling

... height, weight AND achievement/ability. Not just height and weight.

Then you pitch like with like, because yes, height or weight alone or even in combination, isn't the only factor.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

Nobody wants to ban Transgender people from sport. They want them to compete in the appropriate sex category, like everyone else.

@Hotchox

The particular irony in this case is that you could make a very strong case for swimming to be broken down by height the way rowing and combat sports are by weight. No man under the height of 6ft has won anything much in decades. In a multilength race you've literally got to swim the difference in height-plus-reach of a taller competitor, every length, just to keep up! Lia is 6 ft 3 or something isn't she, with presumably commensurate hand and foot size - that's a huge advantage regardless of any hormone regime she's on.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1276899808893157376?t=ZSEdKfAjqqAofOLzdc-MSQ&s=19

I don't understand how anyone could not be furious at this!

Also

https://fb.watch/bRX5ylOc75/

"He's a man"

Lia is a fabulous Trans women.

No. A fabulous human of any description wouldn't be so utterly unsporting and exploitative.

Why not just have a third category ffs?!?! 🤷‍♀️

@DrSbaitso

Lia is a fabulous Trans women.

No. A fabulous human of any description wouldn't be so utterly unsporting and exploitative.

This. Wanted to say it too but couldn’t find the words.

I won’t fawn. This is not stunning nor brave.

We all understand athletes are not 'normal' men or women.

No one can say Usain Bolt or Phelps are your average male homo sapien. They are examples of the absolute top tier of human bodies, ability, endurance and training. Anomalies of the standard in a way.

Women should have the ability to see what a female at the top tier looks like; in the same way men do. So this is why we have a female category and we divide by sex.

No one has the right to be an elite athlete because they feel like it. We do not need to make separate categories for short people or fat people to enable them to compete. Its not how it works.

I think the suggestion of a third category for trans is a real kindness which we do not have to do; but which everyone is willing to go for to resolve this issue. I have no idea why thats no enough.

@WiddlinDiddling

... height, weight AND achievement/ability. Not just height and weight.

Then you pitch like with like, because yes, height or weight alone or even in combination, isn't the only factor.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

You do realise with para swimming though like with like (as you put it) is actually disabled swimmers who's disability affect them in the same way. There is still a huge discrepancy within each classification on ability.

My son has a neurological condition and swims with spasticity and joint restrictions in both legs and spasticity and contractures in both arms. He competes against swimmers with one below the elbow amputation or non developed l(missing) limb, or one leg or hemiplegic cerebral palsy or diplegic cerebral palsy. He's an S9. Theoretically they all have the same level of disability - but they don't all have the same ability to swim at the same speed.

And sport is already split into ability. Grass roots sports, county regional and national competitions. Junior and senior comps, continent competitions and then world competitions.

There is no way even a 17yo 6"3 male swimmer could compete with a swimmer of 23 with the same height and build. And the ability is what creates the competition!

[quote Bangolads]@Boredoutmymind I think we can have a discussion without shouting transphobia as a shutdown. It’s so childish and misogynistic. I think it’s ok to ask questions about this. You’re assertion of ‘ do some research’ is pointless unless you state what exactly your research was. I think you’ll find that there is two sexes and many genders just for the record.

I for one feel it’s unfair. Lia is a fabulous Trans women. Why is that such a bad thing? Why do we have to pretend it’s not true? She feels like a women, so has taken steps to live that life. We can’t magic her into a biological women, but I why should we? Why can’t there be Trans sports? Why can’t we fight for people to live however they choose with out fear but without oppressing others in order to do so. I’d really love to live in a world we’re we aren’t hunted down for saying so. It’s as if we’re living in a modern day version of the emperor’s new clothes.[/quote]

What is so 'fabulous' about being a cheat and depriving women of a hard fought place and medals? It would fabulous if Lia swam in the men's team wearing a costume whilst continuing to love their best 'woman' life. Oh wait....

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

If we made sports all mixed sex with genuine intentions then for the vast majority of sports we'd also have to redefine the concept of 'winning'.

So running and swimming for example would have to stop being first to the finish line because that would always be men (whatever they call themselves). Instead it might have to be scored by a panel similar to figure skating or gymnastics where participants are scored based on criteria like effort, posture, style etc. but not speed.

Still not convinced many women would win even under those conditions and quite honestly would anyone pay to see it?

@stylehelpneeded

Widdlin, that is not what matters. Height and weight are only outward signs of disparity. What really matters is on the inside of the body, lung capacity, fast twitch muscle fibres, size of heart, bone structure, blood oxygenation. The only way to put 'like against like' as you phrased it above is to have male and female categories.

Absolutely. My son is not bad at his sport. He's county level type good. But one of hos friends is national level good. She was ranked top 10, maybe top 5 last year, I can't remember exactly. She's taller than my DS and probably heavier. He can still beat her if they compete head to head when they train together. Why? Because he's a bloke, with male anatomy and physiology.And even if he manipulated his hormones he would still have a lot of those differences.

I am glad that this thread has been allowed to stay in aibu rather than moved to the feminist section as hopefully this will help other women to see what feminists have been shouting about and why, it’s not just about toilets is about the creep into every part of our lives as women and the very real consequences this has, in this case, female swimmers not a chance of ever winning again.

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports

No one is doing this