Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

Thanks @RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

@TradedAtlanta

I completely agree with the prevailing opinion that LT and other transwomen who have been through puberty competing against women is unfair and disadvantages women. I'm also very sympathetic with GC ideas about women's spaces. For argument's sake, what about a transwoman who experienced gender dysphoria prior to puberty and was prescribed puberty blockers before taking female hormones? Would it be fair for her to compete against women? I do appreciate puberty blockers are a whole other thread and there are very strong opinions, but just interested to hear views. Sorry if this has already been covered - I've only made it to page 11!

Under what circumstances would you have a pre-pubescent child take puberty blockers that would have a permanent effect on their health and fertility?

Would you also allow a pre-pubescent child to get married, have sex, play the lottery or buy alcohol?

Men have bigger hearts and lung capacity, greater tendon strength, are mostly taller, faster, broader and stronger. It is absolute nonsense to allow male bodies compete against females. So a swimmer ranks between 450th and 500th and then “identifies” as a woman and comes in first. How can this possibly be fair? Who cares what someone identifies as? I identify as a 6 foot tall supermodel but am, in reality, 5 feet 5 inches and definitely not a supermodel. How can reality and science be turned on it’s head? This baffles me.

For all those with posts being deleted, MN has special guidelines around discussing gender identity. For instance if you misgender someone, you will be deleted.

Those who spend time posting on the feminism boards have learned how to pretzel our words to be able to have our posts stand. Because to have your post deleted may mean losing some excellent thoughts, opinions and links.

Our posts may seem long and laboured but through experience some of us have had our accounts suspended temporarily, many have been permanently banned for not following the guidelines discussing this topic.

At the end of the day you can stick your neck out and swathe yourself in white feathers. If you were born a duck, you're still a duck.

Sorry not able to rtft but I've just read the New Yorker article on this- depressing is not the word- the talk of 'she had a male physique' or some such nonsense - however I genuinely think this has massively brought this issue into the lime light and there is an overwhelmingly angry reaction to it in favour of protecting women's sports .

@SucculentChalice

Cyw2018 Because expoilting young white people with DSD then parading them across international media when questions inevitably get asked, rather than diagnosing and appropriately managing their condition in confidenitatily would be seen as abuse. It definetly seems to be more of a black athlete issue.

The other side of the issue is of course the black women athletes from those countries who are being left out of teams and being denied opportunities because of the pushing/exploitation of athletes with DSD. Imagine being a woman athlete on the brink of international success, with amazing talent, and just needing that bit of help by way of better coaching, better facilities, training camps, etc but no-one being interested in helping you because of DSD athletes being promoted by those in charge of your national federation instead.

Absolutely. But the people complaining about racism here never seem bothered about those black women. Entirely selective.

@LethargeMarg

Sorry not able to rtft but I've just read the New Yorker article on this- depressing is not the word- the talk of 'she had a male physique' or some such nonsense - however I genuinely think this has massively brought this issue into the lime light and there is an overwhelmingly angry reaction to it in favour of protecting women's sports .

Lets hope. We do need more male elite athletes to say something about this though - sadly nobody gives a stuff if female elite athletes say anything about it. I know people were tweeting Gary Lineker yesterday but he won't because he works for the BBC and can't, even if he wanted to (which he may not if he's in Emma Watson's/Tom Daley's stable). But there are lots of elite athletes who don't work for the BBC.

Although I don't know why "neutrality" means you can't say a man is a man and a woman is a woman and they shouldn't be in the same swimming race...

maybe look up intersex. There are not 2 sexes. Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

Not humans. People used to think they could be, but that was at a time when they thought blood went backwards and forwards, and that women could litterally give birth to kittens if a witch cursed them.

@BIWI

Thanks *@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer*

No worries

The other side of the issue is of course the black women athletes from those countries who are being left out of teams and being denied opportunities because of the pushing/exploitation of athletes with DSD

Absolutely, it's another side of the same coin. As for racism, we'll see what happens if Dina Asher-Smith is beaten to a medal this year by Mboma.

I don't think we should divide sports up into men/women necessarily anyway.

There are some sports where men and women compete together/against one another.

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Then everyones competing against people of a similar ability to them - improve your ability, move up a category and again, compete against those of a similar ability.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

maybe look up intersex. There are not 2 sexes. Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

Not humans. People used to think they could be, but that was at a time when they thought blood went backwards and forwards, and that women could litterally give birth to kittens if a witch cursed them.

I gave birth to kittens only last week.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way

Really sorry but I can’t tell if you are joking or not

@Helleofabore

For all those with posts being deleted, MN has special guidelines around discussing gender identity. For instance if you misgender someone, you will be deleted.

Those who spend time posting on the feminism boards have learned how to pretzel our words to be able to have our posts stand. Because to have your post deleted may mean losing some excellent thoughts, opinions and links.

Our posts may seem long and laboured but through experience some of us have had our accounts suspended temporarily, many have been permanently banned for not following the guidelines discussing this topic.

What a smart idea to explain this. Yes you regular AIBU users get the impression that we can say pretty much anything on MN except threats or personal attacks. This is afterall home to a nest of vipers that call out cheeky fuckers, thundercunts and discuss hedge sex and penis beakers. But no, we are very tightly monitored on one topic more than any other, that is using grammatically accurate pronouns for male humans.

Please be careful and don't lose loads of research and typing time and get a warning from the mods that could risk your whole account. And yes I do think it's BU but MN claim their hands are legally tied.

Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

No they're not. That is a 17th century fantasy, like the fantasy of the race of people who carried their heads under their arms.

@WiddlinDiddling

I don't think we should divide sports up into men/women necessarily anyway.

There are some sports where men and women compete together/against one another.

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Then everyones competing against people of a similar ability to them - improve your ability, move up a category and again, compete against those of a similar ability.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way.

There are lots of comments on this thread setting out why that approach (weight/height/achievement - what does this even mean, practically speaking??/etc) does not work. I trust you just haven’t read them yet. I won’t bore you by writing out those reasons yet again.

@WiddlinDiddling

I don't think we should divide sports up into men/women necessarily anyway.

There are some sports where men and women compete together/against one another.

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Then everyones competing against people of a similar ability to them - improve your ability, move up a category and again, compete against those of a similar ability.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way.

Please read the thread. There are so many reasons why this is not the answer.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

maybe look up intersex. There are not 2 sexes. Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

Not humans. People used to think they could be, but that was at a time when they thought blood went backwards and forwards, and that women could litterally give birth to kittens if a witch cursed them.

Is that where the phrase ‘I nearly had kittens’ comes from?

@WiddlinDiddling

I don't think we should divide sports up into men/women necessarily anyway.

There are some sports where men and women compete together/against one another.

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Then everyones competing against people of a similar ability to them - improve your ability, move up a category and again, compete against those of a similar ability.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way.

Shall we all take a wild stab in the dark at a common characteristic of all the people in the top category in your new fabulous system for say... the 100m sprint?

WieldinDiddlin that would mean, that with the exception of some sports that use external resources like guns or horses, that women would never be represented in any significant number at top levels. There is no parity between the strength and fitness of men and women who share similar heights and builds. Teen boys outclass adult female athletes.

The classification is wrong. There needs to be female/male and open. If the trans community have other ideas for how their competitors can have their own space or category then It should be discussed but no one born with a male body should be in women’s sports, changing rooms or scholarships.

So Widdlin you think women shouldn't be allowed to win at sports? Good to know!

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Really, have you never played sports?
Ever even play wrestled with brothers or cousins of about same size?

Try this, arm wrestle a healthy man of approximately your height, if he is elderly or never been to gym all the better, then get back to us.

Most posters on mumsnet are transphobic and dont even understand what gender dysphoria is.

Again what relevance does this have to Thomas?

Firstly it is transphobic to assume that a trans person must be dysphoric, they don't. They just have to 'identify as' the opposite sex.

Secondly you really downplay those with gender dysphoria who certainly would not feel comfortable parading around in a swimming costume displaying their sexed body in its full glory. Thomas is most definitely not a person with gender dysphoria.

Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

Tell you what, post the links to the peer reviewed papers on this.

What is the medical condition?

People are NOW being given the option of having both set of genitals through extreme plastic surgery.

Why on earth would anyone want to put their body through that to get both sets of genitals?

What purpose? It is bad enough reading those females and males who now suffer major ramifications of their failed genital surgeries without reading someone trying to have both!

And their ‘neo vagina’ will be created out of intestines or bowel? Because there is no penis tissue as it will be still in use? Those using those body parts don’t seem too successful.

They say ‘do no harm’!!