Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result

[whytcvv]

When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Don't know how to add poll.

Would someone explain to me "misgendering"

Not using preferred pronouns.

Mind you, after seeing the nonsense the University of Bristol put out about the cat pronouns, one wonders how far this could be taken.

What about football? Woman play professionally these days. Lots of young girls play football at school and for teams in leagues. They play with the boys up to a certain age. The reason they stop playing together is because they can't compete with boys who are quickly becoming stronger and faster. Men are stronger and faster than most woman. Just because a man wants to call himself Debbie and wear skirts doesn't mean he is in any way a woman.

If a picture speaks a thousand word, the these two images will save us all some time & effort.

The relative size of the top three contestants & the modest step difference between each podium.

Without a robe draped over LW’s shoulders as seen on the podium, note his significantly sized upped body as is & in comparison to the two swimmers in the background. Useful fashion tip to draw the eye away from body areas we’re not comfortable with…

There are lots of comments on this thread setting out why that approach (weight/height/achievement - what does this even mean, practically speaking??/etc) does not work. I trust you just haven’t read them yet. I won’t bore you by writing out those reasons yet again.

I don't know what planet people live on whereby height means a man and woman are evenly matched.

My 18yr old DS is short for an adult man, he's roughly the same height as me and his sister- about 5'4/5. I'm definitely heavier than him.

Neither me or DD could beat him at anything - running, arm wrestling, swimming, lifting heavy things. Arguably he's disadvantaged when pitted against many other men but most women - nope.

Regarding horses, the interesting point is whether male and female horses compete with each other.

In 2016, only 40 female horses had ever been entered in the Kentucky Derby, which has been held every year since 1875. It's a very expensive race to enter. Only three female horses have ever won. Even though female horses are only expected to carry 55kg, where the males carry 57.2kg. When it's men's money at stake, they don't kid themselves that female horses can just try harder. They create races that only female throughbred horses can enter, so that they can win back the money it costs to breed and rear a female throughbred racehorse.

@WiddlinDiddling

I don't think we should divide sports up into men/women necessarily anyway.

There are some sports where men and women compete together/against one another.

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Then everyones competing against people of a similar ability to them - improve your ability, move up a category and again, compete against those of a similar ability.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way.

Do you honestly think that a woman has the same strength as a man the exact same height and weight as her? Posters in here have already said that their teenage sons, who are significantly shorter and lighter than their mothers, are far stronger.

There is no strength/speed based sport where men and women can compete on the same terms.

For example, the current women’s marathon record is 2:14:04 (set in 2019 by Bridget Kosgei). That time is a full 13 mins slower than the men’s record. In fact had Bridget competed in a hypothetical mixed marathon at the Tokyo Olympics and run to her World Record time, she would have finished …. 17th.

@UniversalAunt

If a picture speaks a thousand word, the these two images will save us all some time & effort.

The relative size of the top three contestants & the modest step difference between each podium.

Without a robe draped over LW’s shoulders as seen on the podium, note his significantly sized upped body as is & in comparison to the two swimmers in the background. Useful fashion tip to draw the eye away from body areas we’re not comfortable with…

Clearly the REAL winner is the woman on podium 2, second place is the woman on podium 3.

Number one?

The World has gone nuts if they think that’s fair.

Just came across this picture on social media.
How this is allowed I'll never know..

@Crystalvas

Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

Tell you what, post the links to the peer reviewed papers on this.

What is the medical condition?

Their called Hermaphrodites. A person born with male and female sex organs.

I didn’t ask what they are called.

I asked for a medical paper discussing their medical condition and the name of their medical condition.

Hermaphrodites are certainly present in the animal kingdom.

However, I want to know the medical condition where someone has been born with a working penis and a vagina.

Plus I am asking the person who keeps posting this to confirm (in a previous post) whether they mean genitals or reproductive organs needed to produce gametes.

Because these claims keep coming up, I would like the claimer to start providing evidence. Because I don’t believe someone has both sets of reproductive organs producing gametes.

And I doubt there is a group that have been born with both fully functioning genitals.

But I am open to seeing the current up to date evidence.

@Crystalvas

Some people are born with 2 sets of genitals.

Tell you what, post the links to the peer reviewed papers on this.

What is the medical condition?

Their called Hermaphrodites. A person born with male and female sex organs.

What's that got to do with Liar Thomas?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Regarding horses, the interesting point is whether male and female horses compete with each other.

In 2016, only 40 female horses had ever been entered in the Kentucky Derby, which has been held every year since 1875. It's a very expensive race to enter. Only three female horses have ever won. Even though female horses are only expected to carry 55kg, where the males carry 57.2kg. When it's men's money at stake, they don't kid themselves that female horses can just try harder. They create races that only female throughbred horses can enter, so that they can win back the money it costs to breed and rear a female throughbred racehorse.

To follow on from this, fillies have a weight allowance whenever they go up against colts/geldings. It’s an accepted fact that fillies/mares do not have the same muscle frame as their male counterparts.

For years fillies have been seen to be inferior - they fetch less money at the sales - to the point that the whole race programme has been modified to put on more fillies only races offering generous bonuses, etc to encourage people to buy them.

The pendulum has swung but it’s still a fact that despite 52% of foals being born each year are fillies, the make up of the racing population is still 60/40 in favour of the boys.

@WiddlinDiddling

I don't think we should divide sports up into men/women necessarily anyway.

There are some sports where men and women compete together/against one another.

Where it matters.. why can't competitors be divided by height/weight/achievement..

Then everyones competing against people of a similar ability to them - improve your ability, move up a category and again, compete against those of a similar ability.

The fault does not lie with transgender people wishing to compete at sports - the fault lies with sports categorising people the wrong way.

You do realise that in things like track and forked events, sports events such canoeing, cycling and race events such as swimming - you'd still get males competing against males and females against females.

Right through form grass roots level.

What about gymnastics? Get all athletes to compete the same events? All do all 9? You'd still get the woman dominating some and males others.

The only sport I know of where the females could be dominating males is swimming at aged 10-12 because they go through puberty at a younger age. Even then they are more matched than better and faster.

I've just checked the Grand National stats.

Between the first running of the Grand National and the 2019 outing, just 13 mares have won the race. Indeed, none crossed the finish line first between 1951 and 2019.

Have those lazy mares considered Trying Harder?

Of course it's wrong, but to those people saying 'why not have a transgender category, it's the same as why not have transgender changing rooms, toilets etc - the whole point is that trans women WANT to go in the women's spaces. Although I guess at least if these spaces existed, us women could use them as they'd be empty.

"Hermaphrodite" is the most incredibly offensive, dated and inaccurate term for a person with a DSD. I would have to give you a racist term as an equivalent to illustrate how wrong it is.

If you are actually using that word, you have nothing to contribute to the debate. Even if DSDs were anything to do with being trans, which they are not.

People born with dsd are repeatedly used as a 'gotcha' in this debate. By that ridiculous Scottish mp recently in fact. They are nothing to do with trans people and they have repeatedly asked for their condition not to be used in this way.

Lia Thomas is not sufferering from a dsd. She is a biological male who went through male puberty and has all the advantages that gives.

However, if there is a condition in humans in which a person can be born literally both male and female (which is categorically not what happens with a DSD - those are just variations of development along one reproductive sex pathway or the other), then in two billion years of evolution, we would expect at least one human to have successfully impregnated themselves and had a child with only one biological parent who is both mother and father.

Has that happened?

By that ridiculous Scottish mp recently in fact. They are nothing to do with trans people and they have repeatedly asked for their condition not to be used in this way.

And most other members of the DSD community too, based on their blogs and representatives.

They shouldn't have to say it. It's got nothing to do with being trans. And if sex isn't a thing, how did Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard and all the others know which competition to enter before and after identifying as female?

He's a cheat.

If sex is not a thing, what's a trans person?

@Nnique

C** is an incredibly offensive term. MN will delete it if reported, if it’s been used directly toward someone.

I am a woman. No prefix or qualification required. My biology dictates that. Males do not get to co-opt my biological reality.

Absolutely this.

... height, weight AND achievement/ability. Not just height and weight.

Then you pitch like with like, because yes, height or weight alone or even in combination, isn't the only factor.

Look at the way para-sports are done to try and put like with like/against like. Why can't it be done that way?

Or, I guess some folk do not want any solution other than banning transgender competitors from sports.

He looks like man, he sounds like a man, he's built like a man and my understanding is he still is 'biologically' a man. What the hell is he doing in a race against young women? A race they can never win. And, he robbed a young woman by taking her spot.

Here again we have men telling women what they should think and do. In this case by suggesting they are transphobic and thus shutting them down, because they just want a level playing field and to race against other women/girls.

For the bazilionth time absolutely no one wants to ban trans ppl from sport. They simply want them to compete against their own sex

The particular irony in this case is that you could make a very strong case for swimming to be broken down by height the way rowing and combat sports are by weight. No man under the height of 6ft has won anything much in decades. In a multilength race you've literally got to swim the difference in height-plus-reach of a taller competitor, every length, just to keep up! Lia is 6 ft 3 or something isn't she, with presumably commensurate hand and foot size - that's a huge advantage regardless of any hormone regime she's on.