Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

[RedSquirrel111]

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

I agree that this was poor planning. Telling attendees in advance what would be discussed, giving individuals an opt-out would have been fine. What isn't fine is the option to attend and then be told the content and then feel 'do I stay and be upset? Or go and have people wonder why? ' is not acceptable.
Neither would I have wanted to give my reasons for non-attendance as that would be too much in some circumstances.

@lottiegarbanzo

Completely inappropriate. And not At all comparable to miscarriage or stillbirth. In fact to suggest that it is is incredibly offensive.

No it's not. Rather, if you choose to be offended that's your choice. This wasn't a discussion about ethics. No-one was seeking sympathy for their reproductive experience per se. This was a discussion about the workplace impacts of women experiencing things that women experience in their working lives.

It’s not about ethics. Comparing a termination to the loss of a much wanted child is offensive and frankly if you can’t see that there’s no hope for you.

That comparison isn't being made though. That's my point. Where do you think it's being made?

Not in OP's workplace discussion about workplaces issues, the subject of this thread. So why try to shoehorn it in? More pertinently, what grounds would her employer have for trying to shoehorn it in?

Where do you think it's being made?

It’s been made several times on this thread. You might try reading it, it’s not a particularly long one. You, yourself, said it wasn’t offensive.

@NameGoesHere

These sort of events are tokenistic and employers just want to check a box, not expect anyone to actually delve into the issue. I wouldn’t have shared something like that but good for you in embracing the objective, shame the response wasn’t good.

Apologies for just quoting you here but there's been several posts pointing out how much of a shame it is or disappointing of the lack of a good/positive/well done to you reponse.

Are people saying this in relation to the expectation of a positive good response to the act of having an abortion or wanting to make other people talk about it?

It’s not about ethics. Comparing a termination to the loss of a much wanted childisoffensive and frankly if you can’t see that there’s no hope for you.

Its not offensive at all.

There are lots of complex feelings surrounding abortion for some women. Look at the many varied reasons why women have them and you may gain some understanding as to why some women do grieve after having an abortion. Quite frankly, if you can't understand that someone who has been raped, or someone who's partner has just died, or someone homeless, or with severe mental health issues, or someone underage or with complicated health problems or a whole mirade of other reasons may make a choice in the best interest of themselves and the potential baby, but still feel upset, then there's no hope for you.

Let's not gatekeep grief and make one 'worthy' while the other has to be kept quiet for fear of offending someone else.

@PegasusReturns

Are we supposed yo talk about nice fluffy things on IWD and not the physical realities of being a woman? I’d be pretty dismayed by their reaction here

Quite we should all follow the lead of a company I’ve worked for who gave out pink cupcakes whilst failing to address any of the misogynistic attitudes and sex discrimination

😂

I think we're talking at cross purposes Blossomtoes.

This is a thread about employment issues, including the way that women's reproductive health experiences have impacted upon their employment.

In that context could you tell me, on what grounds OP's employer ought to discriminate between a woman discussing her discriminatory experience when she needed time off for a termination, versus a colleague discussing their discriminatory experience when they needed time off to deal with miscarriage?

As we've heard on the thread, people can be upset by being part of a discussion that touches upon any or all of miscarriage, stillbirth, abortion and pregnancy itself, for those struggling with infertility. So there isn't a distinction to be made in terms of 'topics that might upset people'.

I cannot perceive a distinction, other than something based on a belief that only 'good girl' topics may be discussed - a moral position.

@loislovesstewie

BTW I have had 3 miscarriages. I didn't want to talk about them at work either. Neither should I feel that I had to.

What a bizarre comment nobody said you should have to talk your miscarriages at work. But if you had been discriminated against for taking time off for a medical management of miscarriage and you wanted to raise that as an issue of concern during a discussion about discrimination again women in the workplace , then you absolutely should be allowed to do so without being shamed/ silenced.

@Blossomtoes what are you on about? Your comment and taking of offence is ridiculous. Nobody is saying that having an abortion is the same as losing a much wanted child. People are saying that both are relevant in a discussion about women’s experiences in the workplace. Because they are both experiences that uniquely impact on women and can affect what happens to women at work (eg need for time off etc).

@Blossomtoes
It’s not about ethics. Comparing a termination to the loss of a much wanted child is offensive and frankly if you can’t see that there’s no hope for you

Genuinely not being snarky, but what if the termination was due to medical issues and the only option? It feels like the op is being judged for a 'life style' choice, we have no idea why the op terminated her pregnancy, and at what stage.

An abortion can be for a much wanted child and just as heartbreaking.

I shall explain my comment: I would not want to listen to others and their experiences as I would feel obliged/forced to comment. I would wish to absent myself. If I was able to do so without having to say why that would be the better option. In other words I would not want to talk about my miscarriages. When I did miscarry I had no need to discuss it, my GP signed me off and there were no discussions. My manager understood. No need for explanations or sympathy from colleagues. It was between me and HR.

@loislovesstewie

I shall explain my comment: I would not want to listen to others and their experiences as I would feel obliged/forced to comment. I would wish to absent myself. If I was able to do so without having to say why that would be the better option. In other words I would not want to talk about my miscarriages. When I did miscarry I had no need to discuss it, my GP signed me off and there were no discussions. My manager understood. No need for explanations or sympathy from colleagues. It was between me and HR.

Sorry to sound harsh but that is on you. You can’t expect other women to stay silent about issues that affect them because you don’t want to hear about it/ would feel “obliged to comment” and wouldn’t like that. I say this as someone who has ptsd from miscarriage. You are fortunate that you suffered no discrimination as a result of needing time off for your miscarriages, presumably this is because as a society we have been able to have conversations about these things and protect women’s rights on such matters. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for OP’s experience of her abortion. As a result she considered it relevant to share during a discussion about women’s experiences at work.

@loislovesstewie if you’d lost opportunities (bonus, promotion, projects) do you think you might feel differently about the importance of discussing reproduction with neodarwinista as it relates specifically to women?

And it’s really not about gaining “sympathy” it’s about ensuring you are not discriminated against.

@lottiegarbanzo

I think we're talking at cross purposes Blossomtoes.

This is a thread about employment issues, including the way that women's reproductive health experiences have impacted upon their employment.

In that context could you tell me, on what grounds OP's employer ought to discriminate between a woman discussing her discriminatory experience when she needed time off for a termination, versus a colleague discussing their discriminatory experience when they needed time off to deal with miscarriage?

As we've heard on the thread, people can be upset by being part of a discussion that touches upon any or all of miscarriage, stillbirth, abortion and pregnancy itself, for those struggling with infertility. So there isn't a distinction to be made in terms of 'topics that might upset people'.

I cannot perceive a distinction, other than something based on a belief that only 'good girl' topics may be discussed - a moral position.

Well said lottie. People are losing sight of the point here.

It’s not about ethics. Comparing a termination to the loss of a much wanted child is offensive and frankly if you can’t see that there’s no hope for you.

I really hate this hierarchy of worthiness that people put in place. Not all miscarriages are of much wanted children either. I had a miscarriage when I was 19, I was so bloody relieved. A decade later I had an abortion because my womb was septic and I would have died if I didn't. Nothing is cut and dry, you can't make value judgements and the OP wasn't asking people to, she was simply discussing her experience in the workplace. Her reasons for the abortion are neither here nor there.

@RoastedFerret

It’s not about ethics. Comparing a termination to the loss of a much wanted child is offensive and frankly if you can’t see that there’s no hope for you.

I really hate this hierarchy of worthiness that people put in place. Not all miscarriages are of much wanted children either. I had a miscarriage when I was 19, I was so bloody relieved. A decade later I had an abortion because my womb was septic and I would have died if I didn't. Nothing is cut and dry, you can't make value judgements and the OP wasn't asking people to, she was simply discussing her experience in the workplace. Her reasons for the abortion are neither here nor there.

❤️ perfectly said

I'm not being obtuse, but why can't others understand that for ME I would not want to attend some events because it would trigger me? Can I not just be told and then absent myself? It doesn't mean that I am unfeeling about others, just that it for ME it is too much.
I cope with the events in my life (miscarriages, sexual assault at work) by having therapy and then leaving it. I don't want to keep scratching that scab by having it brought back to me, particularly if it's in a setting where I know the other people.
Here, on Mumsnet I'm anonymous. I can say some things I would not want to say in real life. Is that wrong?

I am outraged that your company wanted to do something for IWD, and then told you off for discussing a central issue for women - one of the most central issues for women, which affects the largest number of women. It's the most intersectional, essential, under threat right.

I am fairly disgusted by other people on this thread saying that it was inappropriate because it's 'private' or a 'medical procedure.' Would they have said that if you were discussing a miscarriage? Or birth?

Please be proud of yourself for being so candid and brave and helping to erase stigma.

@loislovesstewie

I'm not being obtuse, but why can't others understand that for ME I would not want to attend some events because it would trigger me? Can I not just be told and then absent myself? It doesn't mean that I am unfeeling about others, just that it for ME it is too much. I cope with the events in my life (miscarriages, sexual assault at work) by having therapy and then leaving it. I don't want to keep scratching that scab by having it brought back to me, particularly if it's in a setting where I know the other people. Here, on Mumsnet I'm anonymous. I can say some things I would not want to say in real life. Is that wrong?

Surely all you’re saying is you’d want to be warned? Because it is important to be able to talk about miscarriages at work in general. Terminations are scheduled operations and never ever happen in the office. Miscarriages just happen and you cannot choose never to have them in the office. Women may have to leave suddenly, they may be visibly wet/bleeding, they may be quietly a bit unwell and bleeding for days or weeks but able to work; for those awful late miscarriages they may have visibly lost a baby or already told work so have to ‘untell’work, this being something women feel able to say is quite important. You should be able to opt out perhaps but you should not be able to silence this discussion.

@loislovesstewie

I'm not being obtuse, but why can't others understand that for ME I would not want to attend some events because it would trigger me? Can I not just be told and then absent myself? It doesn't mean that I am unfeeling about others, just that it for ME it is too much. I cope with the events in my life (miscarriages, sexual assault at work) by having therapy and then leaving it. I don't want to keep scratching that scab by having it brought back to me, particularly if it's in a setting where I know the other people. Here, on Mumsnet I'm anonymous. I can say some things I would not want to say in real life. Is that wrong?

It’s not wrong, your feelings are totally valid. But you have to accept that sometimes you may be in situations where you hear people talking about these topics and , as hard as that is for you , it doesn’t mean others were wrong or unreasonable in discussing them. In a workplace conversation about women’s employment experiences it’s to be expected that sensitive issues may come up. You should absolutely be free to excuse yourself from that conversation. Really sorry to hear of your losses, and that you have been victimised at work ❤️

I'm not saying I would silence the discussion. That was the last thing on my mind. I am just trying to point on, clearly not well enough, that many people can find some topics triggering and want to be absent from that discussion. Yes, I would appreciate being told what exactly was on the agenda and being offered the choice to attend.
I find quite often from my experience that attending some events at work, there was often a point where the speaker would, if the workshop was small, go around the table asking individuals for thoughts. What to do then? Being able to not attend would cause no distress.
So, yes, I am saying warning and the chance to be absent is the answer.

@loislovesstewie

I'm not being obtuse, but why can't others understand that for ME I would not want to attend some events because it would trigger me? Can I not just be told and then absent myself? It doesn't mean that I am unfeeling about others, just that it for ME it is too much. I cope with the events in my life (miscarriages, sexual assault at work) by having therapy and then leaving it. I don't want to keep scratching that scab by having it brought back to me, particularly if it's in a setting where I know the other people. Here, on Mumsnet I'm anonymous. I can say some things I would not want to say in real life. Is that wrong?

For the op it was a relevant point, they asked, op answered and chose to talk about the impact her abortion had on her work life. The op may very well have done some good in bringing it up so the next person won't face the same issues now the workplace is more aware

Your feeling of obligation to talk if someone else speaks up is your choice, you can easily choose not to say anything at all. Other people shouldn't have to stop talking about a subject that impacted them, in a meeting about things that have impacted them, just in case someone else feels upset of offended.

What issues, as women, can we talk about that doesn't have the potential to upset someone?

I cant think why anybody would feel why these issues were appropriate for discusdion at work. If they wanted to hold such a discussion then a notice should have been sent out saying topics may include miscarriage abortion stillbirth. I would have opted not to attend.