Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

[RedSquirrel111]

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

They should have opened a dialogue between the POV of the OP and the upset party to improve how future discussions are approached.
Sorry you don't mean you'd expect someone to have meet with op to explain exactly why discussing abortion upset them?

If the discussion was already about pregnancy and parenting, then this was a completely appropriate time to raise abortion and the associated necessary leave.

It's not something you should be ashamed about, but honestly I think it crossed a line. I would have had no wish for you to discuss your personal sex life at work, which is essentially what you did. You could have brought it up as a potential, hypothetical issue, but to make it personal was self-indulgent and crass.

I'm also of the opinion that women should be able to take responsibility for their own contraception, so many abortions shouldn't be necessary but, you know... 🙄

So a call to discuss women in the work place and challenges women face. You brought up something relevant to women and was told after you shouldn't talk about that. I'd be seething. Well done for talking about such a difficult topic.

I think you were very brave OP.

Ask your manager for clarification via email as to exactly what you have done wrong.

The whole meeting sounds like a shitshow, unless the men were senior managers who wanted to listen in order to inform decisions (doubtful) then not sure the value they added to the call, seems they just took some away. That said I'd feel uncomfortable if someone started talking about their abortion at work out of nowhere- not because I think abortion is bad and I agree it shouldn't be taboo (I have had one so no judgement here), but it is highly emotive for some for various reasons and work colleagues aren't friends for me so I feel uncomfortable hearing much about their personal lives in general. I see the issue with the unpaid day meaning you missed out on the bonus etc but I don't see the issue in taking days as annual leave or whatever if you're choosing to have an abortion.

I don't see the point in having a meeting about being a woman in the industry if you aren't allowed to talk about being a woman in the industry...

If it was solely about bringing up the fact that op had difficulties getting time off then all she had to mention was 'medical procedure'.

But she had an agenda that was totally inappropriate for the setting.

I think you were very brave op and I think your manager can fuck right off. It is part of YOUR experience as a woman in the workplace and you clearly remember how shit you were treated because of it, 20 years down the line. That matters. And it shouldn’t happen, but as a woman who has spent more than 20 years in a very male dominated industry I can guarantee that it still does And, unless we talk about it, it will never change…..

@1000yellowdaisies

I think thats really inappropriate and I don't think you should have bought it up at all. I had an abortion when i was 18. Im now late 30s, married with 2 small children. There's about 2 people who know about it and my husband doesn't.

I don't feel ashamed but I've never felt the need to discuss what is first and foremost a medical procedure.
You planned this regardless of whether or not it was appropriate based on you saying you were 'determined to do so'.

It feels like youve used something that you and me and thousands of other women have been through to try and be controversial and break what you feel is a taboo... women can access abortions freely and easily in this country so who says its taboo?
So much else to talk about on international womens day...
All you probably did was make people feel uncomfortable.

Ugh appalling attitude. So what if only 2 people know about your abortion and your husband doesn’t? Other women shouldn’t be allowed to talk about their experiences because you choose to remain silent about yours? Even on international women’s day when we have been actively asked and encouraged to discuss our experiences as women in the workplace ? And you don’t think abortion is taboo , yet you think it’s inappropriate to talk about it?

@Kite22

It was a general 'talk about our experiences as a woman

Exactly. A discussion about experiences of being at work. Generally it would be expected to be about how women have been discriminated against, and how expectations are inbuilt in some people and some organisations, not a time to start sharing personal medical details. It wasn't the right event.

This was an example of how she was discriminated against as a woman.

[quote Migrainesbythedozen]**@Aprilx* You missed the first sentence of the OP: On international woman's day*

It was clearly an IWD workplace event.[/quote]
I haven’t missed anything. What a stupid comment, why would I have missed half a sentence for goodness sake. My opinions are in full knowledge and are unchanged since you needlessly decided to point that out.

This meeting was a subset of International Womens Day and an employer had organised a meeting to discuss women working in the industry. To be honest, it is disappointing that of all the challenges women face in the workplace that OP chose to bring it back to her sex life and contraception. Do you think men discuss vasectomies if they attend a work meeting about working in their industry. No, I bet they don’t.

@Halllyup17

It's not something you should be ashamed about, but honestly I think it crossed a line. I would have had no wish for you to discuss your personal sex life at work, which is essentially what you did. You could have brought it up as a potential, hypothetical issue, but to make it personal was self-indulgent and crass.

I'm also of the opinion that women should be able to take responsibility for their own contraception, so many abortions shouldn't be necessary but, you know... 🙄

And I’m of the opinion that you have no idea what you’re talking about if you are putting responsibility of fertility on women. It takes a man as well. What about rape? What about failed contraception? What about health issues, financial issues, stability in general?

Take your comments back to the 20th century where they belong.

OP didn’t talk about her sex life. She spoke about the impact being a woman had in the workplace.

Granted, it could have been phrased as a ‘female related medical procedure’ which would be less triggering, but it’s still a female issue that we should be able to discuss openly if it impacts us at work.

OP - well done on trying to break the bias and raise issues at work women experience. It was brave and you should not have been chastised for it. The onus is on the event organiser. If I raise a topic at work, it’s on me to control the narrative, be open minded to others experiences and not to shut down ‘taboo’ subjects unless I’ve been clear about the parameters. Miscarriage, abortions and womens health in general are all valid if they affect our progression in the workplace.

People who are trying to silence OP on the grounds that it is “triggering”, well then you have to include discussing pregnancy, childbirth, having a baby, miscarriage etc in the same boat. So what topics are women allowed to discuss?
In fact any topic regarding discrimination/ experience at work due to being a woman are likely to be triggering. Are people allowed to discuss workplace harassment for example? Highly triggering.
Sorry , but we are all adults, if we are attending a meeting like that we have to accept that sensitive issues may come up. we are all responsible for managing our own feelings and reactions to them and should not expect other women to remain silent about their experiences because it raises difficult feelings in us.

I think you were brave to talk about it personally and I’ve always thought abortion and also miscarriage should be discussed much more. So many women experience it, it’s silly not to talk about it.

It’s an important topic OP. It needs to be raised.

But not on a call on IWD. Employers don’t really want to be challenged on IWD. They want to ‘celebrate’.

This issue grated on someone when you raised it precisely because it is difficult, traumatic and stigmatising. All the very reasons that support for women in the workplace who are going through it needs improving.

This needs a proper, professional, sustained campaign. IWD can go jump…

@Aaaabbbcccc

I think raising it is completely inappropriate. It is beyond the scope of what you would expect someone to raise on a call like this and I think you misjudged it. I say this as someone who is staunchly pro-choice and who is all for woman's experiences being shared and talked about. Even I would have thought it was bizarre and too much. Why you couldn’t get a doctor’s certificate and receive sick pay? It is a medical procedure you need to recover from and that’s why you have sick pay. Sorry if I am missing something - I am just wondering because I assumed it would be something that time could be taken off for.

How ironic. You think it shouldn’t have been discussed, yet you have curiosity/ unknown questions about how it affected her from an employment perspective and what the general policy is..

I’m actually quite shocked by some of the attitudes towards abortion on this thread. It is a completely legal, completely reasonable medical procedure that many women go through. The comments make me even more certain that the OP did the right thing in raising it. We need to talk about it more, clearly!

Totally relevant. Abortion has a legal status. The employer then and now trying to make this some dark taboo subject is totally ignoring the dignity of their employee. It is a medical appointment and one that is bound by timescales. Refusing permission is because of someone's personal beliefs, nothing to do with anything concrete.

Women experiencing miscarriage are often subject to this "not mentioning it" situation. It is ridiculous. I know enough men who've had a vasectomy and time off work. It's to do with your reproductive health and choices. It's not up to an employer when someone chooses to discuss their personal health. It's an issue women experience as is infertility as are many things. All part of a toxic work culture where a personal life has to be very carefully edited.

And all to frequently edited for the benefit of men's ears.

@Halllyup17

It's not something you should be ashamed about, but honestly I think it crossed a line. I would have had no wish for you to discuss your personal sex life at work, which is essentially what you did. You could have brought it up as a potential, hypothetical issue, but to make it personal was self-indulgent and crass.

I'm also of the opinion that women should be able to take responsibility for their own contraception, so many abortions shouldn't be necessary but, you know... 🙄

That's really your issue isn't it? If people talking about pregnancy or presumably maternity leave and parenting makes you think about their sex life then that's your own creepy little problem.

@Blossomtoes

And you feel the same way about miscarriage, pregnancy, child birth and parenting too right? No one should talk about that either?

I feel the same about miscarriage. And I feel the same about stillbirth - also rarely discussed because anyone with a modicum of sensitivity would recognise what a devastating experience it is.

But pregnancy/ mat leave ok to talk about right? Ever considered how upsetting that might be to a woman who just had a late term miscarriage, or was going through IVF perhaps? So hypocritical.

@WomanStanleyWoman

Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....

This seems needlessly dismissive. Can no one Caucasian attend a call or presentation about Black History Month? No straight people involved in Pride Month? I thought we were meant to encourage people to learn.

Well it depends, doesn't it? If the Caucasian person tries to police the discussion or dominate proceedings with their viewpoint or the straight person says after the meeting that they were unhappy with what was discussed, then it would be inappropriate.

And tbh women sometimes need a discussion that isn't influenced by male voices. You must know about the number of times men interrupt women compared to how often they interrupt men or women interrupt men.

OP I think it was fair enough to bring up something that affected you as a woman in the workplace. Unfortunately we can't avoid subjects that make us feel uncomfortable in life.

It was a reasonably small group (as there aren't many women!). On the call there was a bit of a silence, then it was discussed. The only person who didn't respond 'positively' (I say that as joined in the discussion) was one of the 2 men in the call.

Of the 2 men of over a hundred that joined the meeting....

I'm a bit confused.

First you say it was a reasonably small call and then you seem to say that over 100 people attended. Doesn't sound like a small teams call to me.

Then you also seem to say everyone except one man responded positively. Are you say that over 100 people joined in the abortion discussion? How did they manage to do that? Did over 100 people respond verbally? Was there a poll? Did they write comments in the chat? How did you manage to count everyone commenting?

Not trying to be facetious - just confused. I'm on Zoom/Teams calls throughout every day and no chance could I count over 100 respondees to a discussion point. I think it's relevant because you've managed to identify ONE person who didn't join in the discussion and ear-marked him as the suspect.

There’s a real irony in this situation. The reason OP was discriminated against in the first place was her openness about the reason for her absence. Had she told her employer she was taking sick leave for an unspecified medical procedure there would have been no question of it being unpaid - and I’m pretty sure that was as illegal 20 years ago as it is now.

Of course we should talk openly about abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth and menopause, they’re all realities of women’s experience but surely it isn’t unrealistic to consider where and when it’s appropriate to raise those issues and when it isn’t.