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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

292 replies

RedSquirrel111 · 18/03/2022 21:34

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

OP posts:
blueberryporridge · 20/03/2022 09:40

I’m self employed now and really don’t miss this kind of stuff.

Me too! OP this was box-ticking stuff from your employer as demonstrated by your manager’s response. If your organisation was really interested in improving women’s working lives with them, they would be doing something serious about it such as focus groups with female staff and advance notification of what was to be discussed along with a real commitment to changing policies and practices for the better based on what comes out of the focus groups. Maybe you could suggest this kind of approach to them if you want real change.

lottiegarbanzo · 20/03/2022 09:44

How can you possibly know that's how things would have gone in OP's workplace, 20 years ago @Blossomtoes? Were you there?

But we hear you loud and clear: @Blossomtoes believes that everything bad that happened to OP must have been OP's fault. Nice.

Papayamya · 20/03/2022 09:46

If it was a mandatory tick in the box I'd not be that keen to discuss it in honesty- I don't think it's taboo or shameful but it's similarly not something I personally want to discuss at work for various reasons. If it was a drop in you could opt to go to then sure, surely anything is open game as people have chosen to be there.

Blossomtoes · 20/03/2022 09:51

@lottiegarbanzo

How can you possibly know that's how things would have gone in OP's workplace, 20 years ago *@Blossomtoes*? Were you there?

But we hear you loud and clear: @Blossomtoes believes that everything bad that happened to OP must have been OP's fault. Nice.

Because that’s how the discussion would go in most workplaces. It’s a professional environment. Your manager isn’t legally permitted to inquire into your medical information. That’s why companies use occupational health professionals.

Yes, if you overshare in an unprofessional way, sometimes it will have negative consequences. It’s not nice or nasty, it’s how it is.

Unsureaboutit9 · 20/03/2022 09:56

@Blossomtoes the whole point of the thread is that the OP was discriminated against and lost a bonus because of it though, so her employer didn’t act professionally because of a female based problem. It’s a little bizarre that you can’t comprehend this, if she’d had an employer behaving as ‘most’ employers do he wouldn’t have been discriminating against her would he? Because discrimination of any kind isn’t professional. Those who act unfairly to employees = not behaving as normal professionals.

Also plenty of employers are nosy about personal stuff and not understanding about people needing time off. All work places are different. And yeah everyone gets it, you don’t like the OPs decision to be open about her abortion, you have been heard.

lottiegarbanzo · 20/03/2022 10:06

Your comments about OP are ignorant (in the literal sense), nasty and uncalled for @Blossomtoes

CounsellorTroi · 20/03/2022 10:14

@Aaaabbbcccc

I think raising it is completely inappropriate. It is beyond the scope of what you would expect someone to raise on a call like this and I think you misjudged it. I say this as someone who is staunchly pro-choice and who is all for woman's experiences being shared and talked about. Even I would have thought it was bizarre and too much. Why you couldn’t get a doctor’s certificate and receive sick pay? It is a medical procedure you need to recover from and that’s why you have sick pay. Sorry if I am missing something - I am just wondering because I assumed it would be something that time could be taken off for.
I think I agree with this. I wouldn’t have brought up my having to take time off for infertility investigations and IVF.
Discodancinggiraffe · 20/03/2022 10:32

I can understand you mentioning it if the discussion naturally took that route. But you decided you wanted to discuss it and sure it was discussed. On international womens day you choose not to celebrate women and the things they have achieved. But instead choose to make women uncomfortable and think about something in which they may be ashamed or what is often a distressing experiences. Theres a time for that discussion. I do not feel that this was it.

Blossomtoes · 20/03/2022 10:42

@lottiegarbanzo

Your comments about OP are ignorant (in the literal sense), nasty and uncalled for *@Blossomtoes*
They’re not. They’re different to yours.
BobMortimersPetOwl · 20/03/2022 10:47

I don't think its appropriate for that setting at all. It isn't really comparable to things like pregnancy or miscarriage because those things don't tend to evoke strong opinions and emotions.

I'm all for anybody being able to choose, for whatever reason they desire, but that doesn't mean it's a topic of conversation which is suitable for all audiences and environments.

I'd feel uncomfortable with any colleague oversharing any personal information.

Bizawit · 20/03/2022 10:50

@Blossomtoes I had to take time off work a few years or so ago for a medical management of a miscarriage. I rarely take time off, especially several days and at no notice. I heard from a colleague I am close
To that my boss immediately started
Speculating/ gossiping in the office that it was “reproductive related”. When I got back she called me into her office and asked me what was
Wrong and what had happened. I felt under pressure to share, which I did. Luckily my boss was kind and understanding as her daughter (a similar age
To me) had recently had a couple of miscarriages.
You have no idea what the context was at OP’s work 20 years’ ago. Furthermore, it is not particularly relevant. she should have been freely able to share the reason for her absence without being discriminated against. Your notion that OP is to blame for being “indiscrete” is quite frankly deeply misogynistic.

C8H10N4O2 · 20/03/2022 10:56

t's not been raised formally, just my direct manager (who wasn't on the call) pulled me aside to say he'd had a comment that it wasn't an appropriate thing to discuss in a work environment

So a man tells you that someone else (who you think is male) tells you not to talk about an issue which affects many women on a call meant to centre women's issues and how they impact work?

Ask him back, if he thinks its appropriate for men to define what women are allowed to discuss in a forum set up supposedly to discuss challenges which women face by virtue of their sex.

Men used to say this about menopause discussions - currently they are falling over themselves to "facillitate" it for diversity points.

TBH, I'd question why men even need to be on the call. If they want to be allies then set up an ally call to share suggestions and keep the discussions for women's shared experience to women.

Papayamya · 20/03/2022 11:06

@C8H10N4O2

t's not been raised formally, just my direct manager (who wasn't on the call) pulled me aside to say he'd had a comment that it wasn't an appropriate thing to discuss in a work environment

So a man tells you that someone else (who you think is male) tells you not to talk about an issue which affects many women on a call meant to centre women's issues and how they impact work?

Ask him back, if he thinks its appropriate for men to define what women are allowed to discuss in a forum set up supposedly to discuss challenges which women face by virtue of their sex.

Men used to say this about menopause discussions - currently they are falling over themselves to "facillitate" it for diversity points.

TBH, I'd question why men even need to be on the call. If they want to be allies then set up an ally call to share suggestions and keep the discussions for women's shared experience to women.

It sounds like there were loads of women on the call as well, unless OP saw the reaction of 100 people then it could have been one of the women. What should the manager have done?
Kdubs1981 · 20/03/2022 12:00

@BobMortimersPetOwl

I don't think its appropriate for that setting at all. It isn't really comparable to things like pregnancy or miscarriage because those things don't tend to evoke strong opinions and emotions.

I'm all for anybody being able to choose, for whatever reason they desire, but that doesn't mean it's a topic of conversation which is suitable for all audiences and environments.

I'd feel uncomfortable with any colleague oversharing any personal information.

Pregnancy and miscarriage don't evoke strong emotions?! Are you serious? Confused
Justilou1 · 20/03/2022 12:01

Oh bullshit @Blossomtoes… I took my manager to task for gossiping in the tearoom after I refused point blank to explain why exactly I needed time of - after stating that I would be giving HIM a medical certificate, and that would be all he required. He was given one from a gynaecologist and he was speculating that it was for an abortion and sneering about it - and my supposed sex life - and that I deserved everything I had coming to me. One of the people in the room knew I was actually having a uterine cyst removed, and reported his behaviour to me and was a witness when we went to HR to complain. We also had emails to back up his demands prior to approving time off as well. Pig of a man was promoted.

Blossomtoes · 20/03/2022 12:04

That means you had a highly unprofessional shit boss who HR failed to deal with properly @Justilou1. It doesn’t make what I said bullshit.

C8H10N4O2 · 20/03/2022 12:09

It sounds like there were loads of women on the call as well, unless OP saw the reaction of 100 people then it could have been one of the women. What should the manager have done?

Changes nothing in my post. On a call to discuss issues which affect women in the workplace the experiences relating to reproductive biology are entirely appropriate. However I can imagine the presence of men making some women feel uncomfortable so to me, the issue is the presence of men on a call for women to discuss their issues and a male manager deciding its inappropriate.

If men want to be genuine allies rather than tick their diversity boxes then set up calls for that purpose.

Unsureaboutit9 · 20/03/2022 12:15

@Blossomtoes

That means you had a highly unprofessional shit boss who HR failed to deal with properly *@Justilou1*. It doesn’t make what I said bullshit.
Why can’t you accept that the OPs boss was also unprofessional 20 years ago aswell? Wether you agree with her talking about abortion on that call is one thing, but you say the whole thing 20 years ago was her fault rather than her unprofessional bosses, why is it different to this newer poster than had a similar experience?
VeganFuture · 20/03/2022 12:54

@lottiegarbanzo

But how did OP see it helping her, even if no one complained? I was talking about this thread earlier with female friends and only 1 of 4 said that they wouldn’t have minded listening.

OP recognised that this issue, like most important things in life, was not all about her.

The discussion was about women's experiences working in this industry. The subject was this industry and how it is for women to work within. The only meaningful purpose of such a discussion is for the people running it to gather the results, reflect and consider whether useful changes could be made.

As I said here yesterday, the particular issue raised by OP's experience is the wide-ranging individual discretion granted to managers at that time. In this case the use of that discretion to discriminate against a woman. So the pertinent questions arising are:

  1. Do managers still have wide-ranging individual discretion over matters affecting their staff's employment, attainment and progression opportunities?

  2. Do managers have the knowledge and skills necessary to use that discretion appropriately? Is there a training need? Are managers passing things on to HR when they should?

  3. More broadly, Is there a need to review the scope of individual managerial discretion, discover the true current position (on the sorts of decisions managers can take and what their impacts could be, rather than a review of individual cases), which might not match what senior managers imagine it to be, if policies are not watertight or if there's a power imbalance between some managers and HR colleagues. Are some managers still winging it?

These are the sorts of mismatches between policies on paper and in practice that allow institutional discrimination to flourish.

These are the sorts of mismatches between policies on paper and in practice that create invidious individual instances that result in employers being sued and suffering reputational damage.

These are the sorts of reasons that I imagine inspired OP to share her past experience of workplace discrimination; certainly the sorts of reasons why I would feel I was doing my employer a favour by sharing such an example. Especially so if I worked in a male-dominated industry and for a company which I suspected was not completely up to date with best practice in every facet of its operation (and/or one that wanted to be able present itself as a beacon of best practice).

The sort of business that might recognise the need for a discussion of women's experiences in that industry, on international women's day.

I would say that OP recognised very clearly the context of the discussion she was taking part in. Her only mistake might have been to misread the sincerity of her employer's intent.

Were I her, that is what I would be feeding back to her manager. Along with a suggestion that such exercises need to be much better planned and managed next time.

Otherwise they risk becoming part of the sort of leaky and inept structure permitting institutional discrimination, that I described above.

So sharing her experience of aborting a child has achieved nothing. Because we all know these general chats on subjects like this are box ticking exercises. At every place I’ve worked, we are all aware of that. It’s the same everywhere. Unless you are new to the world of work, I don’t know how anyone wouldn’t know that.

The only way to address issues properly, such as the ones you have written, is to contact to HR directly. If OP had done this then she wouldn’t be feeling the way she does and she wouldn’t have upset who knows how many people.

As I said, I don’t go to my place of work to hear about abortion and I shouldn’t have to. I’d have left the call and probably have had a talking to about it at some point by my manager. IN that chat I would have told her my reasons for leaving the call and that if I’m put in that position again, I will give my views at the time to the person being inappropriate. Afterall, if people like OP don’t care who they upset or trigger, why should the rest of us. See

Throckmorton · 20/03/2022 13:45

So people should talk about important issues just because someone might be upset?!

Blossomtoes · 20/03/2022 13:57

why is it different to this newer poster than had a similar experience?

Because @Justilou1 did exactly the right thing and her manager behaved like a cunt.

BobMortimersPetOwl · 20/03/2022 14:05

Pregnancy and miscarriage don't evoke strong emotions?! Are you serious?

Do you think they're on the same level as abortion, something which people hold very strong opinions about, often linked to their faith or moral code?

Don't be so bloody obtuse.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 14:25

So a man tells you that someone else (who you think is male) tells you not to talk about an issue which affects many women on a call meant to centre women's issues and how they impact work?

Ask him back, if he thinks its appropriate for men to define what women are allowed to discuss in a forum set up supposedly to discuss challenges which women face by virtue of their sex.

Men used to say this about menopause discussions - currently they are falling over themselves to "facillitate" it for diversity points.

This. The whole thing needed to be framed as "women will be discussing their experiences of being a woman in the workplace and discrimination they have faced. This may include themes that others may find upsetting such as sexual harassment, sexual assault, pregnancy, menstruation, menopause, miscarriage and abortion."

whumpthereitis · 20/03/2022 15:02

So sharing her experience of aborting a child has achieved nothing.

There were a significant amount of women on that call. OP speaking openly about her experience of abortion may very well have helped someone that have been, or are going through the same thing. Statistically, some absolutely have. She’s challenged the common narrative about abortion and demonstrated that it’s not shameful, it’s a common female experience, and it doesn’t have to be taboo. I’d call that an achievement. It’s individuals that change a culture.

You can be as upset as you like, frankly. That doesn’t obligate women to shut up. I say women because I’ve never heard it pressed into men that they need to shut up to spare the feelings of others. No, the emphasis is always on women to be fucking nice.

VeganFuture · 20/03/2022 15:05

This. The whole thing needed to be framed as "women will be discussing their experiences of being a woman in the workplace and discrimination they have faced. This may include themes that others may find upsetting such as sexual harassment, sexual assault, pregnancy, menstruation, menopause, miscarriage and abortion."

And it needs to be optional with no comeback for those that don’t attend. These are the issues I talk about with my partner, close friends, medical staff and HR if it affected work. Some people may want to talk about this with people they’re not close to, but it’s not for everyone. In the case of abortion, although it’s legal, that doesn’t mean everyone thinks it morally acceptable.