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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

292 replies

RedSquirrel111 · 18/03/2022 21:34

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

OP posts:
Bizawit · 19/03/2022 11:04

@loislovesstewie

I'm not saying I would silence the discussion. That was the last thing on my mind. I am just trying to point on, clearly not well enough, that many people can find some topics triggering and want to be absent from that discussion. Yes, I would appreciate being told what exactly was on the agenda and being offered the choice to attend. I find quite often from my experience that attending some events at work, there was often a point where the speaker would, if the workshop was small, go around the table asking individuals for thoughts. What to do then? Being able to not attend would cause no distress. So, yes, I am saying warning and the chance to be absent is the answer.
I don’t think it’s fair that OP should have to feel she would need to “disclose” that she was going to discuss abortion in advance though. Perhaps she felt in the moment that it was relevant, and she wanted / felt comfortable to share. Should she be silenced then? We are all discerning adults. It’s reasonable to assume that a workplace conversation such as this could raise sensitive issues. Perhaps the employer could have offered a general warning. Not on the OP at all.
Bizawit · 19/03/2022 11:09

@Viviennemary

I cant think why anybody would feel why these issues were appropriate for discusdion at work. If they wanted to hold such a discussion then a notice should have been sent out saying topics may include miscarriage abortion stillbirth. I would have opted not to attend.
You can’t feel why anyone would think it appropriate to bring up topics that direct affect women’s experiences in employment, during a conversation designated to discuss women’s experiences in employment? Lacking some imagination there..
jellyfrizz · 19/03/2022 11:29

@Throckmorton

Dear god - things like this SHOULD be talked about, not hidden away. The way society handles death and loss and biology is so dysfunctional - because people won't talk openly about it.
Yes!
LuaDipa · 19/03/2022 11:40

I don’t think it was inappropriate given the context and your experiences which are directly related to workplace discrimination. Unfortunately this topic made them uncomfortable so they need to make it your ‘problem’ because they don’t want to talk about it again.

Knittingchamp · 19/03/2022 11:47

@RedSquirrel111

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom.... I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that. I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it. I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context? I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....
What a brave and appropriate thing you did OP, you have a lot of respect from me. Your company 'ticked the box' with their women's phone call (small effort on their part) but clearly weren't interested in any substance beyond basic chat and presumably praise for them for making a basic effort. And it was a man that complained, was it?

So in summary their tick box women's exercise made a man feel slightly uncomfortable who then mansplained all over your experience, and the company sided with him, putting you back in your box?

It'd be a 'f##k you' from me, personally.

FourLittleStars · 19/03/2022 12:48

l don’t think it’s fair that OP should have to feel she would need to “disclose” that she was going to discuss abortion in advance though. Perhaps she felt in the moment that it was relevant, and she wanted / felt comfortable to share. Should she be silenced then?

Perhaps not prior to the meeting, but a preceding sentence "I'm going to talk about my experience with pregnancy termination whilst I was working" would be helpful, for me personally. She absolutely shouldn't be silenced. Her experience is valid and sounds like it was helpful to the conversation happening. It's important that it's discussed.

We are all discerning adults. It’s reasonable to assume that a workplace conversation such as this could raise sensitive issues. Perhaps the employer could have offered a general warning. Not on the OP at all.

In situations like the OP describes, I generally ask if people mind if I discuss the distressing circumstances around the loss of my DC2 and DC3 (late term TFMRs. One of which was a live birth).

It's very upsetting for other people to hear. I hesitate to use the term "needs a trigger warning" but it is. I wouldn't generally share details of what happened to me in front of pregnant women, I would phrase certain things differently for different audiences.

BloodyN0rah · 19/03/2022 13:03

I haven’t read the full thread but I think when these types of discussions are arranged in the places I’ve worked they’ve usually been just a box ticking exercise for someone to bring up at their review to say they’ve organised it. It’s like mental health awareness, they want everyone to talk about it but don’t really want to hear that sometimes you cry on a Sunday night cos you can’t face another fucking week, they just want you to say that you’ve had anxiety and found meditation helps. If you think you can change something by contributing then that’s great but otherwise I’d just trot out whatever it is they’re expecting to hear and then get back to my job. I’m self employed now and really don’t miss this kind of stuff.

Chonfox · 19/03/2022 15:02

That was very brave of you. I've had an abortion but I would never bring it up with anyone as it's just too taboo. You will be judged no matter the audience and I'm too cowardly to deal with that. I really admire your bravery and given the context you were not unreasonable.

Papayamya · 19/03/2022 15:23

It sounds like there were 2 men present but 100 attendees? Aware I might have read it wrong as it seems to be contradicted in another post, but how do you know it wasn't one of the 100 (presumably women) that mentioned feeling uncomfortable? If if was, they have as much right to say through the right channels how they felt about it as you did to say it. Knowing the entitlement of men I'd presume they'd just say to you directly and maybe at the time if they felt it inappropriate but who knows. I personally wouldn't like it to be discussed at work for various reasons, but I'd just leave the call rather than try and dictate what's okay to talk about and whats not but we are all different.

VeganFuture · 19/03/2022 15:25

Absolutely. But I don't go to work to be confronted with truths about abortions. Nor do I expect a discussion on pregnancy or maternity leave. There should be space for women to discuss these issues and employers should be seeking out opinions and experiences. But that in no way means that other employees have to be involved in a professional space where they might think themselves safe from such topics. The suggestion by PPs that it's "good" for people to be made uncomfortable in this way is ludicrous.

This.

Telling random employees that don’t want to listen, won’t help women in any way. Forcing your conversations on others isn’t acceptable.

Gumbomambo · 19/03/2022 15:30

I think you were incredibly brave, you were asked to share your experiences as a woman working in your industry and you did. It just goes to show how many people don’t really actually want to talk about these things though doesn’t it? Don’t be embarrassed or upset perhaps speak to the person who had the chat with you again and explain how you feel. You were invited to do this and no caveat was added to what you were supposed to discuss. More power to you.

WeDontShutUpAboutBruno · 19/03/2022 15:51

@VeganFuture

Absolutely. But I don't go to work to be confronted with truths about abortions. Nor do I expect a discussion on pregnancy or maternity leave. There should be space for women to discuss these issues and employers should be seeking out opinions and experiences. But that in no way means that other employees have to be involved in a professional space where they might think themselves safe from such topics. The suggestion by PPs that it's "good" for people to be made uncomfortable in this way is ludicrous.

This.

Telling random employees that don’t want to listen, won’t help women in any way. Forcing your conversations on others isn’t acceptable.

But it was a meeting about women's experiences in the workplace.

They weren't having a meeting about mass redundancies, or the company pension scheme.

If you don't expect someone to talk about their experience as a woman in the workplace then don't attend a meeting about it Confused

VeganFuture · 19/03/2022 16:25

If you don't expect someone to talk about their experience as a woman in the workplace then don't attend a meeting about it

If it’s optional, which isn’t mine or my partners experience at 4 large companies. There’s an expectation to attend these types of meetings. My colleague didn’t attend one on mental health and it was mentioned as a negative on her quarterly review along with some e learning she hadn’t done. 🙄 I have a religious relative who may have said something about her belief that abortion is wrong if she had been made to attend. How helpful would that have been? But yes, IF they are a choice, I don’t know anyone who would choose to attend. They are always a box ticking exercise, nothing more. I wouldn’t waste my time.

TheEarthIsNotFlat · 19/03/2022 16:33

I’d have felt extremely uncomfortable if someone I worked with raised this. I believe in women’s right to choose but can’t some things remain private? I also think that you need to know your audience on potentially emotive topics and clearly you didn’t. So, whilst you aren’t being unreasonable to raise it, you raised in in the wrong place I’m afraid.

DuckyNoMates · 19/03/2022 17:11

@FourLittleStars

l don’t think it’s fair that OP should have to feel she would need to “disclose” that she was going to discuss abortion in advance though. Perhaps she felt in the moment that it was relevant, and she wanted / felt comfortable to share. Should she be silenced then?

Perhaps not prior to the meeting, but a preceding sentence "I'm going to talk about my experience with pregnancy termination whilst I was working" would be helpful, for me personally. She absolutely shouldn't be silenced. Her experience is valid and sounds like it was helpful to the conversation happening. It's important that it's discussed.

We are all discerning adults. It’s reasonable to assume that a workplace conversation such as this could raise sensitive issues. Perhaps the employer could have offered a general warning. Not on the OP at all.

In situations like the OP describes, I generally ask if people mind if I discuss the distressing circumstances around the loss of my DC2 and DC3 (late term TFMRs. One of which was a live birth).

It's very upsetting for other people to hear. I hesitate to use the term "needs a trigger warning" but it is. I wouldn't generally share details of what happened to me in front of pregnant women, I would phrase certain things differently for different audiences.

I absolutely agree with this 100%. You have to make sure people are in the right space of mind to receive your message not just drop it on them.
lottiegarbanzo · 19/03/2022 20:29

I believe in women’s right to choose but can’t some things remain private?

I bet OP wishes it could have remained private - that is, that she could have been granted paid sick leave at the time and this brief, female-specific medical experience had had no impact on her earnings, career and earning potential - so, nothing to talk about in a future workplace meeting.

She wasn't over-sharing for sharing's sake. She was describing an instance of awful workplace discrimination, which happened because she's a woman.

Push your plea for privacy and dignity where it belongs - into the in-tray of the shitty ex-boss and the discriminatory corporate culture that he worked within.

Which was the point of the IWD discussion.

VeganFuture · 19/03/2022 22:52

I bet OP wishes it could have remained private - that is, that she could have been granted paid sick leave at the time and this brief, female-specific medical experience had had no impact on her earnings, career and earning potential - so, nothing to talk about in a future workplace meeting.

But how did OP see it helping her, even if no one complained? I was talking about this thread earlier with female friends and only 1 of 4 said that they wouldn’t have minded listening.

It’s no longer 20 years ago and if OP feels her company would not accommodate time off now for her or other women, she should raise it with HR, not on a phone call with the aim of box ticking. It depends what her objective was, because all she’s achieved is letting multiple people know she’s aborted a child and I bet upset more than the one person that complained. Even if some women were cheering her on.... ???

ZeldaFighter · 19/03/2022 23:19

I would have found this account very sad but also very relevant and important. The whole "workplace concept" is a male creation that women try to fit in. Periods, miscarriages, menopause and yes, abortion are not a male experience and therefore ignored at work. This is despite them all having very real impacts on a woman's life and work. I think it needs to be discussed- especially given the shocking way you were treated by your boss.

I applaud you, op, I think you did a brave and necessary thing.

Justilou1 · 20/03/2022 03:07

The issue isn’t simply the confrontational aspect of abortion though… it is the fact that women MAY have the right to choose to have it, but to do so, they have to take UNPAID leave. They have to explain themselves to their superiors who have OPINIONS about what they should be doing with their own bodies and how they got themselves in the situation in the first place, and then they have to work with their judgments afterwards. (Often it’s not kept private too.) THIS is why it is a WWD topic. Why is something that is legally and morally a woman’s right, still a shameful, humiliating experience in the workplace in the 2020’s? Why are women still being punished financially? What if someone requires counselling as a result of their experience due to this treatment? Who pays for this? The woman…. It’s a never-ending story.

lottiegarbanzo · 20/03/2022 08:56

But how did OP see it helping her, even if no one complained? I was talking about this thread earlier with female friends and only 1 of 4 said that they wouldn’t have minded listening.

OP recognised that this issue, like most important things in life, was not all about her.

The discussion was about women's experiences working in this industry. The subject was this industry and how it is for women to work within. The only meaningful purpose of such a discussion is for the people running it to gather the results, reflect and consider whether useful changes could be made.

As I said here yesterday, the particular issue raised by OP's experience is the wide-ranging individual discretion granted to managers at that time. In this case the use of that discretion to discriminate against a woman. So the pertinent questions arising are:

  1. Do managers still have wide-ranging individual discretion over matters affecting their staff's employment, attainment and progression opportunities?

  2. Do managers have the knowledge and skills necessary to use that discretion appropriately? Is there a training need? Are managers passing things on to HR when they should?

  3. More broadly, Is there a need to review the scope of individual managerial discretion, discover the true current position (on the sorts of decisions managers can take and what their impacts could be, rather than a review of individual cases), which might not match what senior managers imagine it to be, if policies are not watertight or if there's a power imbalance between some managers and HR colleagues. Are some managers still winging it?

These are the sorts of mismatches between policies on paper and in practice that allow institutional discrimination to flourish.

These are the sorts of mismatches between policies on paper and in practice that create invidious individual instances that result in employers being sued and suffering reputational damage.

These are the sorts of reasons that I imagine inspired OP to share her past experience of workplace discrimination; certainly the sorts of reasons why I would feel I was doing my employer a favour by sharing such an example. Especially so if I worked in a male-dominated industry and for a company which I suspected was not completely up to date with best practice in every facet of its operation (and/or one that wanted to be able present itself as a beacon of best practice).

The sort of business that might recognise the need for a discussion of women's experiences in that industry, on international women's day.

I would say that OP recognised very clearly the context of the discussion she was taking part in. Her only mistake might have been to misread the sincerity of her employer's intent.

Were I her, that is what I would be feeding back to her manager. Along with a suggestion that such exercises need to be much better planned and managed next time.

Otherwise they risk becoming part of the sort of leaky and inept structure permitting institutional discrimination, that I described above.

Phineyj · 20/03/2022 09:03

@lottiegarbanzo what you have written is so helpful to a (different) issue I am facing at work. Thank you.

lottiegarbanzo · 20/03/2022 09:05

Oh, ok good Smile

georgarina · 20/03/2022 09:09

YANBU and they were awful to try and censor you!

I had a chat with a senior woman when I was starting in my industry and she told me she had had a termination due in part to workload. I really respected her for being so honest and open with me.

Sarahcoggles · 20/03/2022 09:16

@Kite22

It was a general 'talk about our experiences as a woman

Exactly. A discussion about experiences of being at work. Generally it would be expected to be about how women have been discriminated against, and how expectations are inbuilt in some people and some organisations, not a time to start sharing personal medical details. It wasn't the right event.

Don’t you think that being forced to take unpaid leave and missing out on a bonus counts as discrimination? I wonder if men in that office had to take unpaid leave if they had a vasectomy.
Blossomtoes · 20/03/2022 09:24

@Justilou1

The issue isn’t simply the confrontational aspect of abortion though… it is the fact that women MAY have the right to choose to have it, but to do so, they have to take UNPAID leave. They have to explain themselves to their superiors who have OPINIONS about what they should be doing with their own bodies and how they got themselves in the situation in the first place, and then they have to work with their judgments afterwards. (Often it’s not kept private too.) THIS is why it is a WWD topic. Why is something that is legally and morally a woman’s right, still a shameful, humiliating experience in the workplace in the 2020’s? Why are women still being punished financially? What if someone requires counselling as a result of their experience due to this treatment? Who pays for this? The woman…. It’s a never-ending story.
This is complete nonsense. The conversation goes:

“I have to take a day sick next Tuesday for a medical procedure”.

The usual response would be “OK, I hope it goes well. Don’t come back until you’re completely better”.

If the response is “Oh, what’s the procedure?”, the reply is “That’s personal and private, I’ll just let HR know I’m going to be off sick, shall I?”

There’s no need to share personal details at work. If OP had shown some discretion 20 years ago there would have been no need for any of this.

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