Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

[RedSquirrel111]

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

BTW I have had 3 miscarriages. I didn't want to talk about them at work either. Neither should I feel that I had to.

@Blossomtoes

And you feel the same way about miscarriage, pregnancy, child birth and parenting too right? No one should talk about that either?

I feel the same about miscarriage. And I feel the same about stillbirth - also rarely discussed because anyone with a modicum of sensitivity would recognise what a devastating experience it is.

Sorry?? Someone who has had a miscarriage or stillbirth shouldn’t discuss it, because it’s a devastating experience, and if they do it shows they lack a ‘modicum of sensitivity’ . Did you really mean to say that?

Are we supposed yo talk about nice fluffy things on IWD and not the physical realities of being a woman? I’d be pretty dismayed by their reaction here.

Sorry?? Someone who has had a miscarriage or stillbirth shouldn’t discuss it, because it’s a devastating experience, and if they do it shows they lack a ‘modicum of sensitivity’ . Did you really mean to say that?

You’ve taken it out of context. What I actually said - or meant to - was that these things shouldn’t be sprung on women in a public forum because you have no idea how the audience will be affected.

A woman who had a miscarriage last week would be completely blindsided if it came up in the situation OP describes. Although my stillbirth was decades ago, if it were raised in a work context I’d find it very difficult to deal with.

It’s interesting how many people are talking about women being “triggered” by a difficult conversation. It should be a given that conversations about being female at work are going to include difficult topics.

I was seriously sexually assaulted at work. I understand it may be distressing for others to hear me discuss it but in the context of a conversation which presumably includes how do we mitigate risks for women and remediate issues such a discussion is critical.

Same for abortion. It’s a uniquely female experience and OP was treated appallingly as a result. People need to be aware so they can improve. Otherwise we get nowhere.

@RedSquirrel111 you need to get very clear feedback from your line manager about what the complaint was and why. Something is not offensive just because someone declares it so. There needs to be a degree of objectivity.

If talking about an abortion is offensive so too could periods, menopause and maternity leave. That is not acceptable.

Are we supposed yo talk about nice fluffy things on IWD and not the physical realities of being a woman? I’d be pretty dismayed by their reaction here

Quite we should all follow the lead of a company I’ve worked for who gave out pink cupcakes whilst failing to address any of the misogynistic attitudes and sex discrimination

Wrong time and wrong place I think. Completely understandable if someone made a little comment as I would too. For some people that’s a little triggering and shouldn’t be discussed unless you’re close to them. While some accept abortion happens they still don’t believe it to be ok and that’s ok Aswell. You did what was best for you but not everyone will see That. Just put it to experience and move on.

Abortion is the last taboo. Lots of women have had them - 1in 3 - but no one admits to it. I really applaud you ❤️

For the record I've had three miscarriages, I've chosen to leave a job because of the shitty way it was handled. I absolutely agree these things need to be discussed. If we talked about things more perhaps women (and men) who then are distressed in the moment, due to their personal situation might then be noticed, supported as able to talk through that moment more as well because

1. More people would know how to handle that conversation, it wouldn't be unknown territory - i mean when we hear a colleague is experiencing divorce people around them tend to offer support and yet there are still people who are against divorce due to their beliefs .

1. You'd be less likely to be triggered because you'd be less likely to be suppressing and keeping it a secret, people would be aware and consider their conversation with you respectfully but also not excluding you, give you the chance to join or leave.

It's BS saying you have to keep quiet because someone might be upset. Utter BS. People could always be upset by something that comes up. That means you support them, nottry to gag everyone.

@MintJulia

It is a difficult one. Abortion has been legal in the UK for nearly 60 years, most people believe in a woman's right to chose (I hope) and yet it is seldom discussed publicly and even less so at work.

I class it with politics and religion. All perfectly legal but everyone has their own view, and discussions tend to lead to arguments, so best not discussed where you want to maintain cordial working relations.

Why wouldn’t you talk about a perfectly legal medical procedure?

I get it op. And it does feed back to discrimination too- presumably the man who got you pregnant didn't have to take unpaid leave or lose bonuses.

Because I took unpaid leave for it? Because whilst on leave I missed out on bonus because it wasn't counted as either holiday or medical. Because when I told my manager his response was 'I can fucking do without this right now, don't think you're going to get paid' (it was discretionary. That I didn't get paid was due to his judgement). I then missed out on a secondment Because I didn't hit my sales target.

This is absolutely shocking and TOTALLY a workplace issue, a sex discrimination issue and sexism negatively impacting a woman's career issue.

It's hard to comprehend why it wasn't treated as sick leave (would a vasectomy have been?) but that's the point; that there was managerial discretion and this is how it was used.

What is there managerial discretion about today and how is that discretion used? How well trained are those managers? (If the chap who doesn't recognise 12:2 as 'male dominated' is a manager, not very). That is the interesting question, discussion and learning point to come out of your contribution.

The wider point to feed back is that the employer needs to plan this sort of session A LOT better. They need to think carefully about its purpose, its parameters and what they're going to do with its outputs. Then how they communicate this. That's what I'd be feeding back.

Their poor planning has resulted in you being set up, to be knocked down. You should feel rightly angry and let down about that. They should apologise for it.

@whumpthereitis

A lot of things can be traumatic. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be talked about openly.

‘Trauma’ is a very convenient way of shutting people up: ‘don’t talk about this because it will make x feel bad, and if you make x feel bad you’re a terrible person. So just don’t speak’.

No. Trauma is not the alter that all other considerations should be sacrificed upon.

Absolutely.

I have had two late term TFMRs. I have PTSD as a result.

I absolutely agree that OP should be able to talk about her experience of workplace discrimination with regards to abortion.

Pregnancy loss, however it come about should be discussed in order to remove the stigma. Especially within the workplace. Especially on IWD on a call regarding the experience of women in the workplace/industry.

But, I personally would have appreciated a "I'm going to talk about my experience with pregnancy termination now" so I could centre myself and anticipate it. Rather than potentially being plunged into a flashback, having a very physical response and then having to recover myself whilst remaining professional.

@1000yellowdaisies

I think thats really inappropriate and I don't think you should have bought it up at all. I had an abortion when i was 18. Im now late 30s, married with 2 small children. There's about 2 people who know about it and my husband doesn't.

I don't feel ashamed but I've never felt the need to discuss what is first and foremost a medical procedure.
You planned this regardless of whether or not it was appropriate based on you saying you were 'determined to do so'.

It feels like youve used something that you and me and thousands of other women have been through to try and be controversial and break what you feel is a taboo... women can access abortions freely and easily in this country so who says its taboo?
So much else to talk about on international womens day...
All you probably did was make people feel uncomfortable.

Surely the fact that you think it’s something she shouldn’t have brought up shows just how taboo a subject it is. Women have procedures specific to females all the time - why is it that the only procedure that’s still taboo is abortion? If she had brought up the subject of, say, infertility treatment, would you have thought the same? You’re perfectly entitled to have your own opinions on the subject, and as you’ve got personal experience of it, then it’s understandable that you would find it upsetting. But the OP also has personal experience and is entitled to have her say.

This was an International Womens Day event. One would expect abortion rights to be discussed on International Womens Day.

Absolutely. But I don't go to work to be confronted with truths about abortions. Nor do I expect a discussion on pregnancy or maternity leave. There should be space for women to discuss these issues and employers should be seeking out opinions and experiences. But that in no way means that other employees have to be involved in a professional space where they might think themselves safe from such topics. The suggestion by PPs that it's "good" for people to be made uncomfortable in this way is ludicrous.

I’m surprised so many people think you were unreasonable.

Your work scheduled a call to “talk about our experiences as a woman” in your industry. You shared a uniquely female experience in the belief they actually wanted to learn about what it is like to be a woman in your industry.

However, it turns out the meeting was actually about performative wokeness, and they were not interested in deviating from their comfortable male vision of what being a woman is; clothes and caring responsibilities it would seem. They expected you to stick to the unwritten rule that men should be protected from the messy reality of what living in a female-sexed body sometimes entails.

They have just demonstrated how being a woman in your industry involves pretending you are not in a female-sexed body.

You did nothing wrong.

OP was at an event to talk about what it's like for women at work given we all know discrimination is alive and well. And she talked about being discriminated against for a medical procedure only women have to face. Perfectly appropriate and worth discussing.

This is on the call host/employer who didn't think carefully enough (at all?) about how to contain and manage any 'difficult' topics that were bound to arise.

I work in a school and we are constantly encouraged to contribute personal experiences...and at least one colleague has been told her personal experience was not the kind required. FFS, don't ask then.

You did nothing wrong.

You’ve taken it out of context. What I actually said - or meant to - was that these things shouldn’t be sprung on women in a public forum because you have no idea how the audience will be affected.

This goes straight back to the event's poor planning. This was a discussion on IWD about what it's like to be a woman in this industry. OF COURSE it was going to include mention of unpleasant experiences, including gynaecological ones; how they were responded to and the impact they had at work.

Anyone who felt themselves likely to be upset by such discussions should have been free to opt out of the call. Coerced participation in sensitive discussions is not ok.

Or the discussion could have been structured better, with topics identified beforehand and separate round-tables set up on a few different topics. So a 'pregnancy and reproductive issues' topic could have been avoided in favour of a 'carers' or 'promotion and progression' topic. Though, it's hard to keep pregnancy and childcare out of any topic, as those experiences are so central to so many women's lives.

What did the employer intend to do with the outputs? What's their next step? What is going to change as a result? Asking people to expose their vulnerabilities (whether as speakers or listeners) for a tick-box exercise is not ok at all.

Completely inappropriate. And not At all comparable to miscarriage or stillbirth. In fact to suggest that it is is incredibly offensive.

Abortion is a choice. Miscarriage is not.

The only exception would be tfmr.

Incidentally, what are the topics that can safely and happily be discussed in such a session, if all insensitivity is to be avoided?

I'm not sure I can think of any.

Nothing about sexual assault, or aggression, that's for sure. I guess we have to write off the whole #metoo movement as 'triggering'. Given that provoking responses from others who've been similarly affected is its entire point.

It's not triggering per se it's just largely irrelevant in the context of IWD - the OP could presumably have rung in sick on the day of procedure or taken a days annual leave - what was the employer at the times actual sick leave policy?? If no one got sick leave male or female for anything then how was she disadvantaged?
Instead she made the call with her colleagues about her.

There are many more challenges that women face in the workplace than having a day off for an elective procedure like an abortion - many are made on social grounds (TFMR aside) - clearly not in the same way a cosmetic procedure is - but still - elective. Yes a man doesn't have to go through one physically but nothing we can do about that it's a fact of evolution?

(FWIW I don't believe you should get special leave for an abortion in the same way that someone might if they have a TFMR, miscarriage or stillbirth)

Completely inappropriate. And not At all comparable to miscarriage or stillbirth. In fact to suggest that it is is incredibly offensive.

No it's not. Rather, if you choose to be offended that's your choice. This wasn't a discussion about ethics. No-one was seeking sympathy for their reproductive experience per se. This was a discussion about the workplace impacts of women experiencing things that women experience in their working lives.

What did they want you talk about? How much you love kittens and embroidery and how best to fit those in around the working day and your beauty regieme?

You raised an issue that affects women in your industry in terms of work which wa d the point of the discussion

These sort of events are tokenistic and employers just want to check a box, not expect anyone to actually delve into the issue. I wouldn’t have shared something like that but good for you in embracing the objective, shame the response wasn’t good.