Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

[RedSquirrel111]

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

*Demand not ask for

@RedSquirrel111

Just that, for me, this is the same as sharing the 'I wasn't allowed to wear trousers'.

But it isn't for everyone. Not everyone wants to go to their place of work and discuss personal matters. Your current colleagues are not to blame for the bad behaviour of your former boss. It was shit, but in this case, it may not have been the right platform to air your grievance.

[quote ohleboulot]@ClariceQuiff

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - In no way did I intend to compare period pain to abortion or miscarriage.
The point that I was trying to make is that maybe sometimes it takes one brave person to raise a common yet unspoken about issue to normalize something that is not talked about.

Someone always has to go first - whatever the issue.[/quote]
I agree with your point, but with the caveat that you can't separate it from the nature of what's being raised. Periods - unlikely to be triggering for the majority of women (obviously there will be exceptions) - abortion - generally acknowledged as a sensitive subject for women who fall into more than one category.

I don’t see why we can’t ask for these rights in a way which respects the fact that some women would prefer not to be involved in discussions about abortion in the workplace without notice or agreement. I absolutely agree. Although the onus should totally be on the employer to set the agenda for the discussion/topics that are deemed 'inappropriate' /emphasise that employees don't need to continue to listen if something is upsetting. It's very short sighted and screams 'box ticking exercise' that the employer hadn't forseen these potential issues.

I'm sure the OP didn't set out to upset her colleagues. However, announcing a teams call on genuine issues facing women in the workplace is by it's nature going to bring up reproductive and gynaecological issues. Otherwise it's just paying lip service. The OP shouldn't feel shame in sharing her experience, and the employer should not have made her feel like she did anything wrong. They should have opened a dialogue between the POV of the OP and the upset party to improve how future discussions are approached.

OP, I think you were really brave in talking about your abortion. Few women do, even if they are convinced it was the right thing to do.

Was it appropriate?

I believe in every woman's right to choose, but not every woman does. So there may have been women on that call who felt uncomfortable because you were talking in support of something that went against their personal and/or religious beliefs. (This is without even considering anyone who might have felt triggered due to personal experiences. It was always going to be divisive.)

I think it might have been more neutral to talk about taking time off for a necessary medical procedure and how you had to take that time off unpaid, and how you were disadvantaged as you lost out on your promotion etc, and how no man would have had to endure that same procedure, so you were disadvantaged twice. One by biology and twice by discrimination.

Everyone would have read between the lines, but it wouldn't have been as direct. I don't think the point of the call was to argue whether abortion was right, but how badly you were treated at work because of it.

@WeDontShutUpAboutBruno

It wasn't inappropriate at all op.

It was a medical procedure, it impacted your work, you were entitled to share that if you felt comfortable doing so.

Absolutely.

Just because other people, men or women, may have found the topic uncomfortable, doesn't mean the OP shouldn't share her experience. She shouldn't have to be silent because other people might be "triggered". We can't wander through life worrying incessantly about upsetting others. They need to take responsibility for their own feelings.

The OP wanted to share her experience for valid reasons. She should be able to do this if she wishes without being censored.

@FollowtheLizards I agree with almost all of that. Personally I’d be in favour of much more open discussion but flagged as such- a meeting/call advertised as being about how the employer can support women having terminations, for example.

I’m also sure that OP didn’t set out to upset people. The situations are around terminations are complex and I objected to earlier posts which argued for “making people feel uncomfortable” as a good thing (to be fair, I assume the posters were not thinking of women who’ve had abortions, but women who’ve had abortions are of course a group who might find such a discussion upsetting). I stand by my point that women should be allowed to choose whether to take part in this sort of discussion.

For all the talk of de-stigmatising abortion, miscarriage etc, it seems as soon as someone tries to talk openly about their experiences, they’re told to shut up.

I do think in such a forum, that surely does encourage discussion about female issues, the hosts should probably anticipate sensitive issues arising, and let people know that if they’re uncomfortable they can step away.

I don’t think it’s reasonable that no one should dare mention something that’s potentially sensitive. Can it be triggering? Yes. Should those at risk of being triggered demand that other people can’t speak on their experiences? Well, no. As harsh as it sounds, no one has the right to not be triggered. You have the right to step away from a conversation, but you don’t have the right to dictate that the conversation shouldn’t be had at all.

Also, for all talk of triggering, what about those that would genuinely benefit from hearing what other women have gone through? That would appreciate hearing someone else speak freely? Are they not to be considered?

@ClariceQuiff

I get your point. I understand about not wanting to take about certain things we consider traumatic or even just very personal in a professional environment. Maybe OP's call was not the optimal place to raise the issue without prior warning. But I remain convinced that the issue of abortion and reproductive rights do need to be addressed in the workplace.

I live in France so my view my be biased and slightly distorted : In france you cannot self-certify a sick day. Even for one day you must have a doctors sick note and form for your employer and social security. Your employer can see on the form who prescribed the sick day and what clinic or hospital they work at, so even if the reason for the day or days off isn't stated, it can often be obvious from the specialty of the signing doctor or clinic/hostpital service. In 2016 the head of the college of gynecologists announced that he did not see the necessity of signing sick notes for women who had abortions - that abortions were personal matter and not a sickness. This means that in france - a woman who has an abortion is either "lucky" and has a doctor who will prescribe a sick note or has an unsympathetic practitioner who refuses to issue a sick note and therefore has to explain to their employer that they need a day off ( and often why) . Further onwards midwives in France were given the right to prescribe and supervise medical abortions - but the college of gynecology contested their right to prescribe "arrest maladie" (sick notes) for abortions. Here is an article in French that describes what happened at that point, I'm too tired to translate.. sages-femmes.neufmois.fr/news/tempete-mediatique-apres-refus-du-syngof-prescriptions-les-sages-femmes-darrets-maladie-suite-ivg
Here it remains a real issue - abortion itself is thank fully relatively accessible - however it is still in many cases very difficult to get the accompanying sick note to allow time off work. This puts the onus on women to have to explain to the employer after an abortion ( for whatever reason) why they are requesting time off. Women are not guaranteed a right to privacy, discretion or protection if they need time of following an abortion. For me, however painful, this issue needs to be addressed by any means possible to protect women in the future.

Yeah fuck them OP. And people in the comments saying you made colleagues feel uncomfortable... Good.

They wanted you to speak about being a woman in the industry, and you told the truth of your experience. If there were caveats then management either should have told everyone in advance, or not had the performative IWD call.

@Liveliferun

I would ask for your employers full policy on what is not suitable to be discussed at work. This is ridiculous. We must stop being silenced about the material reality of being female. Not so long ago the same was said of periods, pregnancy, miscarriage, menopause… I could go on but it’s basically every thing connected to being female. Ask for more details OP, it’s not right that you have been reprimanded especially when you felt you were in a “safe space”. I normally bawk at that phrase but in this case you can leverage it to your advantage.

Completely agree with this.

but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.

And here is another classic example of women having to centre men's feelings. And on Women's Day, no less!

You no doubt are right that it was a male who complained. I also feel angry for you that you were made to feel shamed. You are right, experiences with abortion in the workplace is an important part of the narrative and should be talked about, not silenced. I would contact your direct manager who first spoke to you, and say you feel upset that you have been told your experience as a woman regarding abortion in the workplace should be silenced, and you want to make a complaint, and you want the person who told them to be talked to. Or else you'll go to HR. I would truly take it further OP, I honestly would. It is just not on silencing a woman and telling her that something that is an important part of the workplace for women, abortion and leave, should be silenced, and you won't stand for it. Also mention how disappointed and insulted you are that you, a woman, was admonished for this on Womans Day.

I truly hope you don't let this rest. I could not.

I think this is an extremely sensitive subject & it can make a lot of people uncomfortable for a lot of reasons eg religious beliefs, personal experience. In my early 20s I found out my mum had 2 abortions I asked my friends inc my very left wing non religious bf (all highly educated, young professionals) surprisingly the answer was no one actually supported abortion but they rather not admit it in public. Ps I'm sure if it were because the mums life were in danger the answer would have been different.

I actually think that it was more likely a woman who raised a complaint about the appropriacy of the subject. In my experience men don't seem to be that bothered about women having an abortion. They seem much more accepting - maybe because its not something they'll ever have to go through. It's women who seem to have much stronger feelings about it and that are more likely to either judge other women over having an abortion or to feel uncomfortable from past experiences or associated memories.

However, I could see a man rasing it if it meant women might get more time off work than men because that would impact on them.

I don’t think posters are suggesting women should be silenced at work about it, just that there’s a time and place and the correct people to raise any issue with.

So, if you want to talk to HR or your manager about concerns, do that. It’s part of their job to deal with. If you want to have an informal chat on a coffee break where people choose to be in the conversation, do that. But in a more general chat like this was, with people invited who will never be responsible for you needing time off/support or whatever (because they’re neither your manager, HR reps or friends you would confide in), it’s not appropriate, as those people may not wish to be involved in a conversation about abortion.

@VeganFuture It was Womens Day. It was about women. Of course talking about abortion is appropriate! If not on IWD, then when?

We need to talk about it more. To make it more common a subject. Not hush it up. And International Womens Day is the perfect day to discuss it.

@Nightlystroll

I actually think that it was more likely a woman who raised a complaint about the appropriacy of the subject. In my experience men don't seem to be that bothered about women having an abortion. They seem much more accepting - maybe because its not something they'll ever have to go through. It's women who seem to have much stronger feelings about it and that are more likely to either judge other women over having an abortion or to feel uncomfortable from past experiences or associated memories.

However, I could see a man rasing it if it meant women might get more time off work than men because that would impact on them.

My experience is the exact opposite @Nightlystroll . From experience, most men didn't want to discuss abortion even if they agreed with it, and the ones who tried to silence the discussion and admonish us women were all men. Women have no problems discussing the topic, normally. Added into it the OP said all were supportive bar one man. It's pretty obvious to me that he was the one who complained.

I think you should ask whether the person who complained about you sharing your experience was male or female…. Also, how is sharing a female-only experience AND having it invalidated TWICE not a WWD topic? Fuuuuck

@Justilou1

I think you should ask whether the person who complained about you sharing your experience was male or female…. Also, how is sharing a female-only experience AND having it invalidated TWICE not a WWD topic? Fuuuuck

Exactly!

Migrainesbythedozen

I disagree. This was a call open to lots of people where there may have been many people that didn’t want to hear about abortion for a variety of reasons. And they shouldn’t have to.

There’s is no reason at all that abortion has to be something I listen about if I don’t want to. That’s my choice. HR and managers of people may need to deal with this at times if an employee shares that information, and it should be dealt with professionally regardless of personal experiences or beliefs, but if it’s not part of your job to deal with staff issues, then you shouldn’t have to deal with it if you’re not comfortable for any reason.

I wouldn’t say anything negative to a woman who has an abortion, it’s not my business. I believe in the right to choose. But that’s where it ends for me. I don’t have a job that deals with employment law or rights or managing people do I don’t need to talk about it more. I should be able to go to work and not have to listen to it.

@VeganFuture

Migrainesbythedozen

I disagree. This was a call open to lots of people where there may have been many people that didn’t want to hear about abortion for a variety of reasons. And they shouldn’t have to.

There’s is no reason at all that abortion has to be something I listen about if I don’t want to. That’s my choice. HR and managers of people may need to deal with this at times if an employee shares that information, and it should be dealt with professionally regardless of personal experiences or beliefs, but if it’s not part of your job to deal with staff issues, then you shouldn’t have to deal with it if you’re not comfortable for any reason.

I wouldn’t say anything negative to a woman who has an abortion, it’s not my business. I believe in the right to choose. But that’s where it ends for me. I don’t have a job that deals with employment law or rights or managing people do I don’t need to talk about it more. I should be able to go to work and not have to listen to it.

But abortion rights is an integral PART of International Women's Day, and for women in the workforce.

I am trying to understand; why is abortion not ok to discuss but parental leave is? Or any other women's issue? It was IWD. And therefore integral to the entire day.

I don’t know how I feel about the importance of being able to discuss abortions in a workplace when from an employer perspective it should be treated as the same as any other medical procedure, some of which are male specific and I would simply say medical procedure at work for a large range of operations.

But, I would have said to my manager can I check this complaint comes from a woman? Because if men choose to attend women’s events it should be to support and learn, if they attend and then make complaints about the content they should be told that complaining is inappropriate, no one made then go and be exposed to these women talking about women things.

I’m completely with you OP. I’ve also had one and didn’t find it remotely traumatic (being pregnant was more traumatising) I don’t regret it and it was not a big deal to me. it was related to your work due to the way you were treated. I talk freely about my abortion and I’m not going to stop doing that just because some people feel differently. My feelings about it are just as valid as those who did find it traumatic.

I am not interested in hearing about your abortion or your miscarriage or the details of the birth of your child or any medical procedure you had on a work call. Nor do I want to hear about your wedding or your hen party etc. People take unpaid leave for a myriad of reasons and there is no duty to explain why or what procedure you had done that day. You can get documentation without disclosure. I always tell my employees that I don't want to know why they are off, just tell me you are unwell or get documentation that verifies you were unwell (depending on length of time off).

@Midlifemusings

I am not interested in hearing about your abortion or your miscarriage or the details of the birth of your child or any medical procedure you had on a work call. Nor do I want to hear about your wedding or your hen party etc. People take unpaid leave for a myriad of reasons and there is no duty to explain why or what procedure you had done that day. You can get documentation without disclosure. I always tell my employees that I don't want to know why they are off, just tell me you are unwell or get documentation that verifies you were unwell (depending on length of time off).

@Midlifemusings This was an International Womens Day event. One would expect abortion rights to be discussed on International Womens Day.