Talking about abortion in a work 'womans day' call

[RedSquirrel111]

On international woman's day we had a teams call to discuss what it's like being a woman working in our industry. Was mainly women who took part, with a handful of men ready to impart their wisdom....
I mentioned how nearly 20 years ago I had an abortion, how it was viewed and discussed, and how I had to take unpaid leave for it. Its a very uncomfortable thing for me to talk about (due to the way people view abortion, not my experience). But I was determined to do so as think it's quite taboo. Lots of people support the right to chose theoretically, but I don't see many women discussing their experiences. I thought International womans day would be the perfect chance to do that.
I've had a 'kind chat to say it was inappropriate to bring up on the call. Reading between the lines I think it was because I said I never regretted my decision but I regretted the way my (past) employer treated me. I also, and will say I have no evidence for this, but get a feeling from reactions on the call that it was one of my male colleagues that raised it.
I get it's controversial, but it shouldn't be and that was my point in raising it. I also felt that given the context of the teams was 'women in my industry ' it wasn't out of context?
I'm torn between now feeling a bit ashamed and a bit fuck you....

@whumpthereitis

For all the talk of de-stigmatising abortion, miscarriage etc, it seems as soon as someone tries to talk openly about their experiences, they’re told to shut up.

I do think in such a forum, that surely does encourage discussion about female issues, the hosts should probably anticipate sensitive issues arising, and let people know that if they’re uncomfortable they can step away.

I don’t think it’s reasonable that no one should dare mention something that’s potentially sensitive. Can it be triggering? Yes. Should those at risk of being triggered demand that other people can’t speak on their experiences? Well, no. As harsh as it sounds, no one has the right to not be triggered. You have the right to step away from a conversation, but you don’t have the right to dictate that the conversation shouldn’t be had at all.

Also, for all talk of triggering, what about those that would genuinely benefit from hearing what other women have gone through? That would appreciate hearing someone else speak freely? Are they not to be considered?

I agree with this. FWIW I think you were brave @OP and I am always pro women sharing their experiences, however uncomfortable they may be to hear. It’s precisely by creating that discomfort that change comes about.

The real issue though is that the hosts didn’t properly consider the purpose of this session or how to manage the discussion. If they felt containment was necessary, that was on them to do the proper planning and prep and communicate this clearly. Having a ‘kind chat’ puts the onus back on you to have to do this thinking for them - oh the irony, on IWD, that it’s a woman who has to contain herself…

I would be firmly putting this back on them. You’re sorry it was felt to be uncomfortable - what exactly about this do they feel was inappropriate and what will they do differently next time to ensure participants are aware of the parameters of such a session?

Your manager is way out of line. Your comments sound completely appropriate for a discussion about women’s experiences in the workplace. It’s not like you blurted it out in the middle of a budget meeting FFS!

Sorry OP but I would find it a really odd thing to bring up in a work context. I can’t see how it’s relevant in most workplaces and I don’t actually want to hear about my work colleagues medical histories either. Plus it’s triggering for some people, so inappropriate to have discussed it especially without warning other participants. It’s really not at all the same as clothing options and how parenting impacts on your everyday work life.

@VashtaNerada

Your manager is way out of line. Your comments sound completely appropriate for a discussion about women’s experiences in the workplace. It’s not like you blurted it out in the middle of a budget meeting FFS!

I can’t agree, I think it was not the time. Abortion has nothing to do with experiences in the workplace. I would expect a discussion on women’s’ experiences in the workplace to be about things like; bullying, sexism, promotion, networking, sponsorship, “old boys clubs”, equal pay. I would probably hang up / walk out if the conversation turned to abortion, this would be out of disappointment at the workplace discussion being hijacked for something else entirely.

You were brave to bring it up but I agree with some other posters that it was possibly triggering. Fertility is a very emotive subject for some women.

It was a chat in regards to women's issues in the workplace. Subjects such as maternity, pregnancy, and abortion are absolutely relevant. The fact that they are potentially triggering does not mean they shouldn’t be discussed. The triggered should remove themselves, not demand the silence of others.

Abortion is one of the most common medical procedures. Statistically 1 in 3 (or it may be 1 in 4) women will have one. It’s also one of the leading causes of injury and death worldwide for women in countries where it’s illegal. Women die everyday because they can’t access safe abortion. It’s an issue that should be fucking normalized and talked about. It should not be treated as a shameful, dirty secret, or with the attitude of ‘oh, you’re allowed one, but keep it to yourself if you don’t have the decency to feel bad about it!’. Those are the narratives that actively hurt women.

So bravo, OP, and thank you.

@BottleBrushTree @Aprilx It was an International Women's Day event. And abortion rights will always be centre stage on IWD, especially how abortion affects women in the workplace. It is a vital topic and needs to be spoken about more!

Sorry but I don't agree

I don't think it's appropriate to have raised it at all - sounds like the issue the OP had was not so much the abortion and being a woman in her industry but because she had to take unpaid leave it for it...

[quote Migrainesbythedozen]**@BottleBrushTree* @Aprilx It was an International Women's Day* event. And abortion rights will always be centre stage on IWD, especially how abortion affects women in the workplace. It is a vital topic and needs to be spoken about more![/quote]
Per OP, it was a “call to discuss what it is like to be a woman in our industry”.

It was not a call about anything to do with women.

I think there are some things you don't bring up at work, like religion and having an abortion. It's one of those things where people have very strong feelings either way or the subject could cause distress. I once worked with a person who got religion late in life, it was evangelical, and they decided we had to be converted. Now it's OK to be religious BUT not to bring the evangelizing to work. Eventually he was told to stop. If some have strong feelings about a subject, either way, I think it's best to leave it at home. You don't know if anything traumatic had happened to the others in your group, so best not to.

@Aprilx You missed the first sentence of the OP: On international woman's day

It was clearly an IWD workplace event.

A lot of things can be traumatic. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be talked about openly.

‘Trauma’ is a very convenient way of shutting people up: ‘don’t talk about this because it will make x feel bad, and if you make x feel bad you’re a terrible person. So just don’t speak’.

No. Trauma is not the alter that all other considerations should be sacrificed upon.

The man, who was silent and criticised your junior colleague for her comments on a work event massively overstepped. His role was to listen and learn.

The upshot from the call is that two women were admonished for talking about their real issues. Was it a box ticking exercise or were you told there was an aim?

Would talking to HR and asking what is and isn’t appropriate something you would be willing to do?

@whumpthereitis

A lot of things can be traumatic. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be talked about openly.

‘Trauma’ is a very convenient way of shutting people up: ‘don’t talk about this because it will make x feel bad, and if you make x feel bad you’re a terrible person. So just don’t speak’.

No. Trauma is not the alter that all other considerations should be sacrificed upon.

Well said.

Oooh yeah that's gonna be a divider.

I understand where you are coming from and what you tried to achieve.

Perhaps of all the things they (whoever complained) thought the session was going to be about, they weren't prepared for this be brought up. Maybe whoever it was has struggled to conceive, miscarried, had their own experience that they didn't want to drag up from memory.

Unfortunately I think that there are things that although legal, we are just not quite there with acceptance.

It's extremely subjective and complicated and each circumstance will be complex. Your words were that you had no regrets but for many I imagine, it was not an easy decision.

I think you were not wrong to discuss but the angle you pitched it at was never going to be well received. It sounds like you were more bothered by having to unpaid time than you were about the procedure.

I don't think it will ever not be taboo. Any maybe that's ok too.

You're a brave woman OP. A hell of a lot braver than me.
But do you really think this would have helped the process? Shock tactics don't work in my experience.
Not the way you presented it.
I hope it hasn't caused any negativity on the purposes of the event.

I think Followthelizards post upthread is testament as to why you were right to do so. Not wanting to be sanctioned, she went to work the day after being raped and again within 12 hours of an abortion as a result of that rape. You otoh did tell work and were sanctioned for it with harsh repercussions.

Women’s lives can only be made better if the stigma of abortion, miscarriage, periods, maternity, menopause, rape etc is addressed. Nothing should be off the cards if it happened at work or if there was a repercussion at work due to a women’s biology. Case in point, being sanctioned for having an abortion.

I would really like to know the aim of this call.

@FollowtheLizards I’m so sorry for your experience.

Yes and as a woman in that industry OP was put at a disadvantage in the workplace as a result of a women’s issue.

It’s completely appropriate. It should be discussed. This thread shows we still have a long way to go though. I think MalFunkshun’s approach is probably the right one here.

Good luck op!

Sorry meant to quote Aprilx

I think it’s inappropriate to bring it up, I’d have been pretty shocked. That’s not something I’d be sharing with a load of work colleagues.

Abortion is one of the most common medical procedures. Statistically 1 in 3 (or it may be 1 in 4) women will have one. exactly so chances are there were other women on that call who have had or are currently considering an abortion. I don't think it's too much to ask that OP took that into account when choosing to discuss it.

So it was a meeting specifically for IWD. About women's work experiences in their industry.
OP spoke about how she was discriminated against and harshly disadvantaged purely because she had to undergo a female-only procedure in work time.
And PPs are saying she should not have mentioned it??? Really?
I highly doubt that the focus of her point was details of the procedure, far more likely the focus was the discrimination.
How is anything ever going to change when even women are protesting at other women speaking about their experiences of being discriminated against at an event looking at women's experiences?
Surely this is the perfect time to raise such issues and discuss them?

These conversations must be uncomfortable if we're going to make progress. If Companies really want us to talk about how our work lives have been impacted because we are women then they need to be prepared to hear the answers instead of expecting performative teams talks where we keep the topics light abs fluffy.

I have said some uncomfortable things which felt a bit incendiary at the time. I talked at a gender pay gap session at work and I told my story of how at the same company we were all at had once promoted me and 2 male peers, from and to the same roles telling me there was no pay increase. I then found out the men had both got an increase. It was awkward because I didn't pretend it was at a past company and the 2 males were also at the meeting. I did wonder afterwards if I should have made such a public statement at a company that I'm very senior in (so not really expected to go against the company line) but I'm glad I did.

I applaud you OP

I guess it does partly depend on how much you talked about the abortion and how much was on the way you were treated at work

@PrinceParry
You absolutely did the right thing. This is equal pay discrimination (even if it wasn’t back then) and something to make people aware of.