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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to wonder what Russia is up to in Ireland..

463 replies

Chamomiltea · 10/03/2022 21:59

Reading this was a shock, given recent events... www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2022/0310/1285699-russian-embassy-orwell-road-irish-government/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
eggandonion · 11/03/2022 12:37

Go to a funeral in Northern Ireland, proper egg and onion sandwiches made with real salad cream, nice sliced pan.
None of the chives and mayo nonsense!Wink

eggandonion · 11/03/2022 12:39

The Victorian Quarter in Cark is going to be the VQ apparently.
The Russians must have to double check their maps a lot with all the rebranding.

Moyny · 11/03/2022 12:40

[quote LizzieAnt]@eggandonion
I always thought Cork was in the south too, but Fáillte Ireland have decided in their wisdom that Cork city is part of 'Ireland's Ancient East'Grin The Wild Atlantic Way begins around Kinsale, ie just over the road. (In fact most of the country is either in the 'Ancient East' or 'Wild Atlantic Way', though there's a small 'Hidden Heartlands' in the middle.)[/quote]
I've a friend who works for Bórd Fáilte, and her account of the various lobbyings and shenanigans surrounding the designations of and publicity for the Wild Atlantic Way and Ireland's Ancient East (the 'difficult second album' of Irish tourism marketing) are fascinating.

There was a big bust-up at one point because Killarney was marketing itself as ' (a) gateway to the Wild Atlantic Way', and Kinsale got odd about it and there was a lot of tourism-related handbags at dawn.

I was living out of Ireland of Ireland, so missed by the launch of the WAW and IAE -- it was a surprise to me to discover that Cork city was even in IAE.

JaneJeffer · 11/03/2022 12:42

Sorry, I misunderstood. No problem, I knew you did and they're both offensive and dense Grin

Would ye stop talking about egg sandwiches 🤢

eggandonion · 11/03/2022 12:47

I think there was a small Cork Harbour thing for a while, but I don't know if it still exists... East Cork feels Ancient East, West Cork is more Wild Atlantic.
Kinsale is a bit like Cornwall (I will be in trouble...), Bandon is more where the West begins?
Or Clonakilty.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 11/03/2022 12:50

@JaneJeffer

Sorry, I misunderstood. No problem, I knew you did and they're both offensive and dense Grin

Would ye stop talking about egg sandwiches 🤢

I love egg mayo sandwiches despite not particulary liking eggs.
user1496146479 · 11/03/2022 12:53

[quote borntobequiet]At any rate, its the ROI posters who've derailed the thread

Facts are important, and the naming of the separate parts of the island of Ireland particularly so given the general ignorance of the UK population, some of whom still think that Ireland is part of the UK.
Andrew Bridgen, Tory MP and prominent Brexiter, claimed in 2018 that being English entitled him to claim an Irish passport.

[/quote] This with bells on!!
BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 11/03/2022 13:15

[quote LadyEloise1]@Sweetmayday re your comment about Prime Time and its revelation that Ireland has the second biggest Russian embassy in the world.
Second to the US.

ShockShockShock
If this is true one has to ask why !!![/quote]
Did they say that? Because the information that I read was that the Russian embassy was the second largest embassy in Ireland (staff numbers) after the US embassy. Which is slightly different. And the size of the Russian embassy staff is suspicious because there are very few Russians living in Ireland and there isn't much travel by Irish people to Russia.

Moyny · 11/03/2022 13:18

I think that's right, @BlackAmericanoNoSugar what I read (though I can't remember the source now) was that Russia's number of embassy staff in Ireland was second only to the US's embassy staff numbers, but that it made little obvious legitimate 'sense' because so few Russians live in Ireland, it's not a huge trading partner etc there's no strong connection as there is with the US to explain such a big embassy staff presence.

DownNative · 11/03/2022 13:23

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

Jesus *@DownNative* I've rarely seen so much wrong as everything you've said in your "patiently explaining why Irish people are wrong and you alone have the correct knowledge" manner.

"The name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland".. doesn't mean "the name of the state is Éire and it's ok to say that if you don't speak English". It's phrased that way around because it's a translation of the law and the Irish language version has supremacy. That means a less literal translation (if it was written with the English language as primary) would say "The name of the State is Ireland and in the Irish language, Éire."

And this is just outrageous:
Using "Ireland" for the southern state was always meant to confuse outsiders, to promote a united Ireland and to act as though the island itself isn't divided into two separate, distinct parts.

It was never "meant to confuse outsiders". That's not how countries select their own names. Ireland has always been Ireland, and the fact of invasion, plantation and occupation didn't change that. It had a name and a national identity of irishness long before Elizabeth I and the plantation of Ulster. Why should a country which has finally reclaimed its independence have to change its own name because partition was the price of home rule? Ireland is no less Ireland just because it had to surrender six counties.

If you take a chunk of Wales in the east and give it over to administration by the government in England, should the rest of Wales lose the right to be called "Wales", so nobody gets confused between Wales and the English county of East Wales?

@YerWanIsGettinNotions,

I'm afraid that several things you've said is ahistorical and can be demonstrated to be so with evidence.

"The name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland".. doesn't mean "the name of the state is Éire and it's ok to say that if you don't speak English".

On the contrary, it does not prohibit anyone from using "Éire" whatsoever.

It was never "meant to confuse outsiders". That's not how countries select their own names.

Firstly, what I said isn't outrageous by any means whatsoever. The ROI Constitution is testament to that fact with this:

“the national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.”

Indeed, we can see how true it is that the Irish State chose the name of the entire island for itself as part of its anti-partition campaign from the 1940s onwards here:

"When Ireland launched a major antipartition campaign in the late 1940s, the titles used by the British and Irish governments to refer to each other assumed a greater political significance, because a key component of this campaign was to use international organizations to highlight “Ireland's claim to complete freedom of her entire territory.”

Indeed, an Irish Government department (Department of External Affairs) in 1947 made it clear in a letter to all heads of Irish Government departments that their purpose is:

"to prevent the use—not only at International Conferences, but in ordinary Departmental files and correspondence here at home—of expressions which are not in accordance with our external position and may prove embarrassing to us on policy grounds.”

One of the terms they were referring to was the name....."Ireland".

The then top Irish Civil Servant in the Department of External Affairs told an ambassador to use "Ireland" rather than Éire precisely because:

"As you are aware, it is the hope of everybody in this country that the use of 'Ireland' to describe the Twenty-Six Counties will have a definite psychological effect in favour of the unity of this country on both Irish and foreign minds."

That is a practice that has continued ever since to the present day. Brings us right back to the territorial claims over Northern Ireland in the ROI Constitution for many decades.

Ireland has always been Ireland, and the fact of invasion, plantation and occupation didn't change that.

Always? Really? You must know it's pretty easy to debunk that....surely?

Names for the island of Ireland in history:

Inis Ealga= nobleorexcellent island.

Fiodh-Inis= Woody island.

Crioch Fuinidh=remote country.

Inisfáil = Island of Destiny.

Ériu, Banba and Fódla given by the Daanans.

Scotia and Greater Scotia.

And so on. Point is, you were very much incorrect to claim the island was "always" known as "Ireland".

It had a name and a national identity of irishness long before Elizabeth I and the plantation of Ulster.

It has multiple names. But concepts of Irishness and other nationalities did not occur until the 1750s onwards. The American and French Revolutions were the main origins of this relatively modern phenomenon.

In the 5th Century, St Patrick referred to the inhabitants of the island as Scoti which originally meant the peoples of the two main islands in the British Isles archipelago.

Even the Ulster Cycles tells us that the people of the whole island didn't have a common identity or a common name. And the Cycles does contain kernels of truth as shown by DNA evidence today.

Indeed, history is often incorrectly used to assert a common national identity over the people of the past going back hundreds of years.

"history is indeed an important means of criticising traditions and questioning established wisdoms. But there are many good reasons to avoid history becoming the basis of national identity formation and legitimation. It seems wiser to assume that society would be better off with weak and playful identities rather than those underpinned by a strong sense of a common national past."

www.historyandpolicy.org/

Another mistake people also make is assuming the people identified as a racial group by skin colour. This is also a relatively recent modern phenomenon rooted in the Atlantic Slave Trade.

Ireland is no less Ireland just because it had to surrender six counties.

If you were speaking in purely GEOGRAPHICAL terms, then I'd agree with that.

But you are speaking in political terms, so you're incorrect. The Republic doesn't extend to the entire island and that is a political reality.

Surrender? No, the people of the then 1920 Ireland couldn't agree with each other on the future course. What's more, the Government of Northern Ireland had the democratic right to opt out of the Irish Free State. Today, the Government of the Republic of Ireland recognises that the future of Northern Ireland is only for the people of Northern Ireland to decide. That's democratic.

So, the south cannot surrender what is not theirs. Hmm

If you take a chunk of Wales in the east and give it over to administration by the government in England, should the rest of Wales lose the right to be called "Wales", so nobody gets confused between Wales and the English county of East Wales?,

Illogical. England and Wales do not share the same name. Other partitioned states do not usually share part of the same name.

India - Pakistan and India.

Czechslovakia - Czechia and Slovakia.

Germany - West Germany and East Germany.

Note that West Germany did NOT take the name of all Germany for itself during the years of partition.

In fact, Sinn Féin argue that the Republic should be following the example of the German states by not calling itself "Ireland".

Hence, I posted Gerry Adams' words as an example.

I'm afraid you have no valid argument to make there.

DownNative · 11/03/2022 13:35

[quote yodaforpresident]@MargaretBall and yet for the Olympics there is Team GB emblazoned everywhere and indeed that is the official name of the UK team..........[/quote]
When the athletes come out and to wait, the screen behind them states "Team GB & NI". Most people don't really notice that.

But it is Team GB & NI. For branding purposes on merchandise, its shortened to Team GB.

yodaforpresident · 11/03/2022 13:47

Yes, I know that @DownNative - but you said it yourself, nobody actually notices/ reports on anything other than Team GB - that was my point. Pretty sure it says GB on the leaderboards etc too, but happy to be corrected.

yodaforpresident · 11/03/2022 13:51

As I thought,

olympics.com/en/olympic-games/tokyo-2020/medals official Olympic medal table

DownNative · 11/03/2022 13:51

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

And I don't know if you missed a little document called the Good Friday Agreement- it's only 35 pages and dates from 1998, so you may have missed it if you weren't paying attention.

One effect of that little agreement was that the territorial "island of Ireland" claim was abandoned by the Irish government and more notably by the people of Ireland who voted by a majority to change the constitution to recognise that Ireland means 26 counties, and it became law.

That's why the British government moved away from using "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland" and agreed to recognise the name of the state properly.

I did, in fact, reference to the change in the ROI constitution vis a vis Northern Ireland. But it doesn't change the reality that is how the term " Ireland" is used today.

Indeed, there are many who use it to claim NI is the south's territory. Gerry Adams' speech on this is interesting albeit from a different perspective to mine. I note that has been ignored. Hmm

The ROI Government had to acknowledge the correct term as "Northern Ireland" before the UK would agree to "Ireland". This is a very recent convention since 1998.

YerWanIsGettinNotions · 11/03/2022 13:57

Firstly, what I said isn't outrageous by any means whatsoever. The ROI Constitution is testament to that fact with this:

"the national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas".

This hasn't been true since 1999, when the implementing legislation was passed. And the government proposed- and the majority of Irish voters agreed - the change. The Bunreacht is a living document and it's hosted online, it should be easy enough to find.

Frankly if you can't be bothered to keep up with a relevant fact which has been part of the legal framework for 23 years and you hinge your entire arguments on completely missing the Good Friday Agreement and its effects, I wonder why you even bothered typing that all out.

YerWanIsGettinNotions · 11/03/2022 14:00

You keep referencing Gerry Adams. He’s not an Irish politician, he’s a Northern Ireland politician.

He's not in our government, he was elected to Westminster. Different country.

He’s never had a role in the formation of our State, whatever his agenda.

Why should I give a shit what he says?

DownNative · 11/03/2022 14:10

@OchonAgusOchonOh

That's pretty disingenuous of you. Êire is not, in any way, offensive. Here, the stamps celebrating the diaspora was released in February 2020 by the Republic of Ireland:

www.dfa.ie/global-irish/staying-in-touch/latest-news/newsarchive/ireland-celebrates-diaspora-with-special-postage-stamps.html

It clearly states "Éire".

The coins also state "Éire".

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_euro_coins

The Constitution does make it clear the State has TWO official names and either may be used.

If you come across any GB citizen who leaves out the fada, do what I do - educate them on how to spell it correctly. Many of them do not realise the fada is important and the same occurs for other foreign languages which require a fada. There's more often than not nothing more to it than that.

But it is erroneous to claim it is offensive, full stop. It shouldn't be an opportunity for victimhood. Hmm

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 11/03/2022 14:10

He doesn't speak for me either.

DownNative · 11/03/2022 14:18

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

You keep referencing Gerry Adams. He’s not an Irish politician, he’s a Northern Ireland politician.

He's not in our government, he was elected to Westminster. Different country.

He’s never had a role in the formation of our State, whatever his agenda.

Why should I give a shit what he says?

Ummm.....Adams was a Louth TD. Last I checked, that's in the ROI.

At any rate, it was just an example of how the people of the ROI do NOT have a homogenous view. His view is the view of Sinn Féin. ....last I checked, the party with the largest share of votes.

It's not an unusual view amongst Republicans.

DownNative · 11/03/2022 14:22

@YerWanIsGettinNotions

Firstly, what I said isn't outrageous by any means whatsoever. The ROI Constitution is testament to that fact with this:

"the national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas".

This hasn't been true since 1999, when the implementing legislation was passed. And the government proposed- and the majority of Irish voters agreed - the change. The Bunreacht is a living document and it's hosted online, it should be easy enough to find.

Frankly if you can't be bothered to keep up with a relevant fact which has been part of the legal framework for 23 years and you hinge your entire arguments on completely missing the Good Friday Agreement and its effects, I wonder why you even bothered typing that all out.

You blatantly claimed that the use of "Ireland" wasn't anything to do with a united Ireland. You also claimed that was always the name of the island.

Both demonstrably incorrect which is why you now attempt to deflect from it.

On the contrary, the Constitutional change did not result in a societal change as a majority still hold that the entire island is theirs. You can keep denying that as much as you want, but it's there.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 11/03/2022 14:23

[quote DownNative]@OchonAgusOchonOh

That's pretty disingenuous of you. Êire is not, in any way, offensive. Here, the stamps celebrating the diaspora was released in February 2020 by the Republic of Ireland:

www.dfa.ie/global-irish/staying-in-touch/latest-news/newsarchive/ireland-celebrates-diaspora-with-special-postage-stamps.html

It clearly states "Éire".

The coins also state "Éire".

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_euro_coins

The Constitution does make it clear the State has TWO official names and either may be used.

If you come across any GB citizen who leaves out the fada, do what I do - educate them on how to spell it correctly. Many of them do not realise the fada is important and the same occurs for other foreign languages which require a fada. There's more often than not nothing more to it than that.

But it is erroneous to claim it is offensive, full stop. It shouldn't be an opportunity for victimhood. Hmm[/quote]
It's not in the least disingenuous. Éire, used correctly and in the Irish language, is perfectly appropriate. Used the way it is used by many British people is offensive as it is used in.an attempt to deny our independent statehood.

If you don't want to use the word Ireland and don't want to offend people, use ROI. If you don't want to use the word Ireland and are happy to be considered offensive and disrespectful, carry on as you are.

Inerve · 11/03/2022 14:31

I know that threads can evolve, but honestly the back and forth about Ireland and NI and so on is becoming so fecking tedious now and completely off topic.

Is it orchestrated to divert attention away from perhaps nefarious activities by the Russians in the Embassy in Dublin? Derailment by the bots in the Embassy Basement lol. I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway it certainly looks like the Russian diplomatic presence in Ireland is out of proportion to that of the Irish representation in Moscow.

Simon Coveney is Minister for Defence, and Foreign Affairs and he is on to it, betcha! Keeping an eye on the progeny of a former FF Minister also of the Lenihan dynasty who has connections let's say with Russia. Oh what a tangled web.....

LizzieAnt · 11/03/2022 14:31

@DownNative
What people are saying is that the name Ireland wasn't given in an effort to confuse. The intention was clear.

There are some nationalists who don't accept the names as they're used today, I agree. This is more in NI though.

Your point re Irish Gov Dept in 1947 -
"to prevent the use—not only at International Conferences, but in ordinary Departmental files and correspondence here at home—of expressions which are not in accordance with our external position and may prove embarrassing to us on policy grounds.”

One of the terms they were referring to was the name....."Ireland".

This is wrong - I think you must have misread the relevant passage. They wanted it to be called Ireland at that point. (There had been some to-ing and fro-ing between Ireland vs Éire earlier on.)

The name Éire was used purposely for years as a political slight, that's why it's best avoided now when speaking English - the intentions of the speaker are suspect otherwise.

DownNative · 11/03/2022 14:32

@Ulchabhan

No:

"Gaeilge is the word where the English language word “Gaelic” is derived from."

Source: www.bitesize.irish/gaelic-irish-language/

I use the English word for the language of the Republic. "Irish Gaelic" is an acceptable term to use.

So is Scottish Gaelic. In Scotland, "Gàidhlig" also means "gaelic".

LizzieAnt · 11/03/2022 14:33

Is it orchestrated to divert attention away from perhaps nefarious activities by the Russians in the Embassy in Dublin? Derailment by the bots in the Embassy Basement lol. I wouldn't be surprised

Ah no, I doubt it.
This happens all the time!

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