Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

NC because clearly, I'm such a rubbish parent. ASD meltdowns.

163 replies

Junipercrumble · 06/03/2022 20:32

DD is a teenager with ASD and probably ADHD.
She is extremely intelligent academically, has zero empathy, cannot imagine being in someone else's shoes, approaches every boundary in life as either a boundary she doesnt care to breach and therefore will accept or more commonly, an obstacle to overcome by any means.

She pushes hard against any boundaries if she doesnt agree with them.

I require the patience of a saint to live in the same house as her.

We dont share many values or beliefs, in fact, we hold opposing views, yet in some ways, we are quite similar.

DD screams, swears, punches, kicks, bites, takes my belongings when she chooses, never asks, doesnt accept that I am in charge ever, never considers other people and their needs, controls everything in the house and all I hear is that this is down to her anxiety.

Well, maybe it is, but that doesnt help me to cope with it.

Anytime I try to explain to DD how her actions or words affect me, she blocks my voice out by singing loudly while I'm talking, putting headphones on and listening to music loudly or shuts herself in her room while leaving me to sort out the latest disaster. If I continue to try in a calm way to talk to her, she will become violent and since she is physically stronger and faster than me, I get hurt, or she will tear my phone/tv remote/snack out of my hand/pocket to 'remove my privileges', because I am not behaving myself. 🤔

This infuriates me, because I'm always left to bear the consequences of her actions, whatever those consequences may be.

She cannot see it from my pov and I cannot live her way. 😫

There are so many things she does that are completely inconsiderate to me, but I will describe one day for you.

She lays in bed until she feels like getting up.
She runs herself a bath and despite explaining until I am blue in the face, will top the bath up until there isnt a drop of hot water left.
I then have to switch on the immersion which gives a small amount of hot water, which I can ill afford, or go without showering/washing hair/washing dishes.

She throws all of her clothes around her room, eats in her room, discards dirty sanitary towels on the floor, in fact, she never ever uses a bin or a washing basket, both of which she has.
She helps herself to whatever food, drink, makeup she wants and then just drops it on the floor, never puts anything away or in a bin, no exaggeration.
She cooks anything she wants to cook and usually I end up putting most of it in the bin because she doesnt want it anymore.
She has absolutely no respect for me at all, and I suspect, views me as a mere domestic appliance, whose sole reason for existing is to quietly carry out all of the tasks she doesnt want to do, whilst making this as difficult and challenging a process as humanely possible.
She refuses to do ANYTHING unless she wants to, EVER!!
I am threatened with violence every single day! I am attacked every single day verbally, and every single week physically.
I am walking on eggshells in my own home.Sad

Today, I went for a shower before she had a bath, I was 15 minutes tops, washing my hair, showering, drying and dressing and I come downstairs to find she has mixed 1.5kg of flour, 12 eggs, a pint of milk and 500g of butter into a bowl, covered the kitchen worktops with it, broken eggshells, sloppy paste all over the work surfaces, floor, fridge handles, splattered all over the kettle, cupboard doors were dripping in the mixture, a letter covered in the gloop, 3 baking trays out of the oven covered in gloop, tea towels wet with gloop, and paints out on the sofa 🙈.

When I asked her what she was doing, she tells me to stfu and then blocks her ears and walks out, leaving me to clean AGAIN.

I feel like a 12th century slave. 😭

I cannot understand her complete inability to accept how horrible this is for me to deal with, when she accepts she would hate to do it herself, but apparently, it doesnt occur to her that other people feel that way too.
We have something along these lines most days. 😭

She doesnt like cleaning, but gives no consideration to whether I enjoy cleaning it. (I dont!)

If your child has ASD or ADHD, doesnt have any empathy, doesnt accept boundaries, and you feel as though you are being bullied by them on a daily basis, how do you determine whether this is a part of their ASD, their need for control, their anxieties, or whether they are in fact just a bully?

A psychopath doesnt necessarily have ASD or ADHD, yet they dont have much empathy nor accept boundaries.

I hear SN parents saying their DC cannot control their meltdowns, but what is the difference between a meltdown and someone who is using particular tactics to get their own way?

Are they the same thing?

How do you clearly identify a meltdown as opposed to bad behaviours? I am struggling to see the difference.

DD is inconsiderate. Is that her ASD?
DD doesn't care about how anyone else feels, only how she feels. Is this ASD?
DD screams, punches, kicks, bites and does everything in her power to sabotage what I'm doing when she is annoyed. Is that ASD?
DD is incredibly lazy. Is this also ASD?
How can anyone define what is genuinely ASD and what is simply the actions of a person who doesnt give a shit about anyone except themselves and is only happy when they are getting their own way?

IABU: All of those undesirable and horrible behaviours are directly attributed to ASD and are completely out of the control of someone with ASD.

YANBU: Lots of shitty behaviour is attributed to someone having ASD, but it is also quite possible that the person is simply a horrible bully who has learned they do not need to try to conform to social expectations or norms, nor control their horrible behaviour because they have ASD, or maybe they're actually an undiagnosed psychopath or a sociopath?
Why arent children diagnosed with psychopathy or sociopathy and if children could be diagnosed with those or similar conditions, how many children who were previously thought to have ASD or ADHD would have been diagnosed with psychopathy/sociopathy/antisocial personality disorder instead?

I am really struggling with DD and how I am always expected to have a never ending fountain of understanding and patience when tbh, I dont.

What even is the fundamental differences between a person with ASD, a psychopath and a sociopath?
And how can I know which one of those is DD?

Sad
OP posts:
Rububububu · 06/03/2022 20:37

You sound very overwhelmed, but it is hard to look past asking whether there's a difference between having ASD and being a psychopath.

PonyPatter44 · 06/03/2022 20:39

She sounds disgusting. How on earth is she ever going to live a normal life if she thinks its ok to behave like this? Does she go to mainstream school, and does she behave like that there?

BodgertheJogger · 06/03/2022 20:45

Give yourself a break, OP. This sounds like it would be very difficult for anyone.
Has she always been like this?
In total all honesty, I think it would be very hard for anyone to say what parts of her diagnosises (sp) make her do what.
I could only suggest that a well qualified psychologist might be able to tell you.

NrlySp · 06/03/2022 20:46

My questions would be
What help are you getting? From school/social services/family/asd charities/respite/CAHMS

Is her Dad in the picture to help and support you?

She is also a teen, even no with ASD they can be incredibly selfish, single minded etc.
Maybe it’s times to call the police next time she is violent to you?

How old is she?

Junipercrumble · 06/03/2022 20:47

Imagine living in the same house as someone who overpowers you mentally and physically, who bullies you and treats you with no regard, as if you are sub human?
Someone who demands you carry out their every need while they relax and spend their time on leisurely pursuits of their choosing, and if you refuse to wash their clothes, they urinate on their clothes, refuse to tidy their space, they leave it until even you are overwhelmed by it, and if you refuse to be silent, they physically attack you?
Imagine living with someone who threatens to take photos of you while you're upset to send to their friends online to demonstrate that you're weak and make their friends laugh, yet you're expected to accept this as a part of their need to control, because they have ASD?
Imagine attempting to confiscate their device as a clear message this is unacceptable and being bitten to the bone, only to let go and find they have now wrestled your device from your pocket, such is their strength.

And imagine being told by professionals that if you and your child were not mother and child, but were partners, this would be classified as a DV relationship, but it's not, because your child has ASD?

It is unbearable!

OP posts:
Tigofigo · 06/03/2022 20:52

Impossible to answer really but I think you know that.

Can I ask what you've tried / put in place already? Do you think she has Pathological Demand Avoidance?

Junipercrumble · 06/03/2022 20:52

DD is 15.
She doesnt have a school placement because the council cannot find a school that can meet her needs.
She has not attended mainstream for many years now and every other placement has failed due to her being unable to cope. Sad

Her father is supportive but we are separated and my DP doesnt live with me because he cannot cope with DD's manipulation and violence.

I love DD with all my heart but I dont believe she has the capacity to care for anyone.

We are on the disability team with SC and DD spends a couple of hours a day with mentors.

OP posts:
Tigofigo · 06/03/2022 20:53

Are you getting any respite? Can you get direct payments to pay for it? Does she go to school?

BattenbergdowntheHatches · 06/03/2022 20:54

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

Jellyfishjean · 06/03/2022 20:54

I'd go zero tolerance on her. Won't get up? Wake her up. Leaves sanitary towels on the ground? Refuse to buy them for her till she puts them in the bin. She's living like an animal and treating you like a slave. Cut her off. Give her the bare minimum until she goes by your rules. Zero pocket money - turn WiFi off etc. No way would I ever allow myself to be pushed around like that.

Tigofigo · 06/03/2022 20:55

Sorry cross post.

It does sound like PDA

Did she attend for some time perhaps mainstream then have a school related breakdown by any chance?

Tigofigo · 06/03/2022 20:56

I'd also start shouting safeguarding at social care every chance you have

Are you entitled to EOTAS and is there anything she would like there

Does she have friends?

WhatNowwwww · 06/03/2022 20:57

It sounds like you desperately need some further support with this OP. Which professionals are involved at the moment?

WhatNowwwww · 06/03/2022 20:58

Sorry cross posted with you OP. I took too long to type!

cansu · 06/03/2022 20:59

It does sound unbearable. I haven't experienced this as my ds is very severely learning disabled but I have experienced violence and extreme damage to the environment. It did very nearly break me and I was unwell with the stress.

I think there comes a time when it isn't possible to share a home with someone who treats you in the way you describe. I think you should set out your red lines and begin to redraw some boundaries. I think you need to separate out the inconsiderate behaviour from the plain aggressive, abusive behaviour.

If she is violent physically, call the police. Tell her when she is calm what you will do if she is violent and do it.

Put away things that you don't want her to have access to. Get a lock for your bedroom door and lock it. My ds used to go into his sister's room and break her things. We fitted a number lock to it to give her a safe space.

I feel for you because living with someone on the spectrum can be incredibly difficult. She may have another condition that is making this situation worse. Most autistic people do not behave like this but I think many parents have experienced violence from their children.

WhatNowwwww · 06/03/2022 21:00

@Tigofigo

I'd also start shouting safeguarding at social care every chance you have

Are you entitled to EOTAS and is there anything she would like there

Does she have friends?

I agree with this. I’d also be saying you’re at crisis point and if they don’t offer more support you’ll no longer be able to care for her and they’ll need to find care for her full time. I think it’s often the only way to get them to cough up now that budgets are so stretched.
Junipercrumble · 06/03/2022 21:01

@Tigofigo

Impossible to answer really but I think you know that.

Can I ask what you've tried / put in place already? Do you think she has Pathological Demand Avoidance?

Yes, I firmly believe she has PDA, I have pursued a diagnosis for this for many years, but was only able to get an ASD diagnosis under the NHS.

I have done a lot of research on PDA, read up on it a lot and professionals who have worked with DD as well as current professionals agree that DD 'ticks' all of the boxes for PDA, but the NHS paediatrician wont diagnose PDA.

I try to keep demands low, but that often means the demand, rather than disappearing, becomes my responsibility.
I am feeling overwhelmed with the amount I need to do, to keep on top of things.
Today is obviously a bad day. Maybe the baking was the final straw for me today. Sad

I do a lot of listening to DD, and try to talk to her when she is calm, but my presence can often be enough to set her off.
I feel under immense pressure to work faster and harder to keep on top of things and it seems senseless to me that as hard as I try, DD appears to sabotage my efforts, sometimes with glee.
I remind myself regularly that if it's not possible for her to love me (and I dont believe it is) then it must also be impossible for her to hate me.

She is intelligent, surely she can understand that a human being can only endure a certain amount before they cant endure any more?

OP posts:
cansu · 06/03/2022 21:02

I have just seen she is out of education. Have you thought about looking for a specialist independent? It could be day or could be residential. If the LA cannot find somewhere that meets her needs, I would be looking for it yourself. You can force them to pay for such a placement via a tribunal. Her being out of school makes this easier.

haaaaaaalp · 06/03/2022 21:06

Op I am no help, but I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you're going through this. It sounds thoroughly awful, you poor thing.

UndertheCedartree · 06/03/2022 21:10

You clearly need much more support.

But no having ASD is not the same as being a psychopath. Myself and my DS are both autistic and we both have a lot (too much) empathy.

Nomoresmoresthensnores · 06/03/2022 21:11

Hello.
Zero tolerance won't work on an autistic person. It is anxiety based. As hard as that is to believe. Dont take advice from people who don't have SEN children or experience.
I have an ex who is Autistic and a son. I know lots of autistic kids and teens. I'm not an expert though of course and no one size fits all. Neither do I believe in no consequences (look up natural consequences).
First of all. Your situation is tough and you sound exhausted. A lot of us parents of Autistic kids have days and longer like this. It can be tough when they're in bad spirits. Teens are tough anyway. She's out of school so even tougher.
As a parent of a child who was also out of school my understanding of your situation is that your daughter is very hurt and angry because of her situation and she is taking it out on you. A clinical psychologist told me that most kids not in school want to be there, even if they refused to go or acted up there.
I suggest you get 'the explosive child' and read it. Lots of good info in general.
Also try to understand she's a lot younger developmentally than her peers. Intelligence doesn't effect emotional development. Her Intelligence will also mean she feels the effects even more.
My son does things like you've described. But only when he's really unhappy it dusregulated. He's really doing well right now so its not often. Please try and access some alternative activities for her. Search around. She needs to be out of her zone.
I know it may seem to other parents you are rewarding bad behaviour but honestly you need to build her back. The behaviour is poor mental health and low self worth. If you can get adhd medication it will help too.
Try to have fun together. Tough I know and probably a lot won't be. But the more you build up your relationship the less she'll do this. Her impulse controls will be low too. So the cake thing she knew was bad but couldn't control herself.
Good luck!
(If it gets bad.. train yourself to walk away and count to 10, 20..whatever.. I'm still learning that myself.. also reacting seems to make my son worse so I try not too).

Porcupineintherough · 06/03/2022 21:12

@Rububububu

You sound very overwhelmed, but it is hard to look past asking whether there's a difference between having ASD and being a psychopath.
Maybe you should think about your own prejudice then. Asd and psychopathy are both forms of neuro diversity. No one gets to chose if they are born with one or the other. People with both need help learning to navigate the world and the people in it.
Trying2310 · 06/03/2022 21:13

Have you looked at Yvonne Newbold's page on Facebook? This is a great support group for children with a range of additional difficulties especially those who are violent to parents. I am a member of the group because I was struggling with my ASD son's violent meltdowns. It is very supportive and there are a lot of strategies and support for parents of PDA children

Tigofigo · 06/03/2022 21:16

You're right you can't get a DX for PDA in this country most of the time. Honestly it wouldn't make a huge amount of difference as long as you have demand avoidant profile in there somewhere.

I imagine you're well informed on it but declarative language and non violent resistance might be worth looking into.

You could also try praising her indirectly but within earshot "on the phone to a friend" when she does things "right". It sounds like that's few and far between for you at the moment though.

I think you know this but really solid reasons behind the boundaries you DO need (make them unreliant on empathy) can sometimes help. Eg I cannot let you bite me / punch me as that is assault and may get you arrested. (May be a bad example as is very anxiety inducing!!) and it sounds like you've tried this, but natural consequence may eventually get through too (but you have to deal with clothes covered in urine in the meantime).

There are specialist residential schools for children with PDA it would be worth looking into.

madeittofriday · 06/03/2022 21:17

Loads to unpick and you are not surprisingly overwhelmed.

Lots of sensory stuff going on - the bath, the mess in the kitchen, the headphones and loud music. Your DD needs help and you need help to support her.

I suspect talking to her about how it impacts you will have zero effect. How much do you help her organise her day - get up, get dressed at particular times etc? Help her know how to tidy her room? Is she lazy or recharging after masking and coping with the rest of the world.
Parenting an ASD child is really difficult and I know you're at the end of your tether but there's not much in your post to indicate that you understand what's going on in her world.