To send my eldest to grammar school knowing it’ll be a squeeze?

[Troisfoisfilles]

So my eldest just won a place at a really good grammar school in our area to start year 7 in September which is great.
She did so well in the entrance exam and interview that she was offered a scholarship and we have been awarded a brilliant bursary. Only trouble is, the bursary doesn’t cover everything and even the transport and uniform are a huge expense! It’s going to be a massive squeeze on finances. I also have two younger children who will no doubt miss out on little treats and things that I won’t be able to afford any longer 😞.
She is very intelligent and would do well at any school but I know for a fact that she won’t achieve full potential at a state school.
I originally applied for a place for her at the school I teach at. It’s a great school and she would do ok there but I don’t want just ok for her. For a start, she’s really quite eccentric and mature for her age. Kids similar to this at my school don’t really go down that well and are singled out by the others - kids are horrid!
I really believe she needs the small classes, discipline and pushiness she’d get at a grammar.
So am I being unreasonable in sending her?

I went to private school on a scholarship. No one really cares who the rich or poor kids are so it was a total non issue in my experience. Some kids were undoubtedly wealthy but most were from normal professional families. In fact I found the rich kids tried to play down their wealth: "yes we live in a castle but we're cash poor" type of thing. People seem to use this excuse of not wanting their child to be the 'poor kid' as a reason not to send them and I think that's such a shame as they're missing out on such a great opportunity for something that doesn't really happen!

I think you’ll find those are private/independent schools that have retained the name. A glance at a couple – Leeds, Bristol – bears that out.

The grammar school system is free – these places obviously wish to retain the cache lent by the high academic standards and selectivity of grammar schools proper. Who can blame them.

There are thousands of children around the country who go to the dozens of fee paying grammar schools listed. In these areas, ‘going to the grammar school’ - will mean you pay. It’s a question of grammar. 😁
We both know you are talking about the grammar school system which operates in a few counties. But for the rest of the country, ‘grammar’ doesn’t indicate ‘free’ so your argument does not carrying any meaning in these areas.

We disagree on the best sort of education, which I think ideally is comprehensive (and streamed within). My DC’s got the highest grades from such a place. But it’s a decent comprehensive with a true mix as we have no grammar schools (except fee paying ones!) near by. Everybody locally just goes to one school as it’s the only school for miles.

However, what ever style of education you go for, the most important thing is your child is happy and thriving, so the OP made the right choice for her child.

This ^^

No one in Leeds says their child goes to "grammar school" meaning Leeds Grammar School. Because it's not a grammar school!

Similarly, Harrogate Grammar School is actually a state comp, not a grammar.

@Chimchiminie You are wrong. Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England

Argh no no no. Do people really think these schools are actual grammar schools?? No, they are independent schools and the 'grammar' part is name only... they are not in the grammar school system. So much misinformation on this thread!

I do.understand how the Grammar school.system worked as I did the tripartite system in history in the 80s but in mist parts of the UK the Grammar/ secondary modern system was phased out over 40 years ago ,my town has a,fee paying school.with the name Grammar in it but obviously I'm aware its an independent school.,but many people might not know what Grammar schools were or only have a vague understanding.

Grammar schools you have to pay fees for in England

No, you really don’t! Grammar schools are state schools (free) which you need to pass an entrance exam to get into.

Some other schools may have kept the word ‘grammar’ in their title. If they are few-paying, they are not grammar schools.

Lolz at the cachet comment! I teach at Bristol Grammar and it’s in the top 100 academically. Manchester Grammar even more academic. The reason they kept the name is that they were once Grammar Schools.

I guess it's more accurate to say they've kept "grammar" in their name for historical reasons. Either way, they're not grammar schools any more.

When is the grammar school not a grammar school?
When it’s in Newcastle, Leicester, Bradford, Bristol, Bury, Derby, Huddersfield, Loughborough, Manchester, Wolverhampton, Portsmouth, Leeds, Huddersfield, Stockport ……

You can not say there are no fee paying grammar schools because people in most of the country will know the local grammar as being fee paying. You can say there are no fee-paying schools in the grammar school system that exists in certain counties. At least I think that’s true. It’s all a question of grammar!

I think the grammar school system (and getting their children into it) is a big part of some parents lives and they are keen to uphold a too narrow definition of the word. Which is why OP got some unneeded hassle.

I went to public school. It was fee paying and not open to the public. That’s grammatically a problem too, also due to historical factors.

Well exactly. They might be 100% selective but if they’re fee-paying, it’s really nothing to do with what the grammar school concept is about.

They’re selective private schools who’ve chosen to include ‘grammar’ in the name because it communicates academic excellence and selectivity in a way that the term ‘private (slash public) school’ does not.

Surely they include grammar in their name because that was their name long before state education even existed,

Well yeah and have chosen not to change it despite them no longer being a grammar.

The grammar bit is an attractive bit of branding in all sorts of ways.

By contrast, if a comprehensive changed to a grammar school, very doubt they would retain the ‘comprehensive’ as a nod to its heritage.

I think there’s something quite lovely about going to the ‘local comp’ but they’re all changing names to Academies now.

‘something quite lovely’? 😁

Did you go to one? 😄

(Not saying comprehensives are bad – some are, some aren’t – just struck me as a funny thing to say if you actually went to one…!)

No I went private then ‘public’. I always fancied going to the local comp. They were much cooler. The grammar (the rival fee paying) had even naffer uniform than us though.

When I did my teacher training I taught at the most amazing comp up North. Absolutely outstanding example of what a school should be and I thought a lot about how bad the private school teaching had been. I taught in various comps of varying standard.

My DC went to the local comp. They are really bright and would have done well practically anywhere. 5A* and an A between them at A Level (proper exam years). And the local comp gave them a very short day so they could do activities out of school (one will be going into the industry of the back of this) and now each have a chunky house deposit each with the money we wouldn’t have saved if we had had to go private. Their school wasn’t perfect, like my first teacher training one, but they have a much more rounded educational experience than I had. It’s the ideal really isn’t it - everyone of all backgrounds learning together, being a community as you all live in the same area and walking to school. You can just pop to your mates round the corner. And the chance to do well from any background - not relying on tutors for an 11+. It just like private ones though - you can get some awful comps (or Academies).

At my public school, many parents lived miles away and on more than one occasion forgot to pick their children up on exeat weekends. We had school on 6 days until 6pm. Then ridiculously long holidays alone as no one was from where you lived. Ex-army teachers who were up to no good with the sixth formers were off loaded to another school to go quietly. One had such a temper they let him go before he killed someone (he was massive and used to throw things at us if we got an answer wrong). Oxbridge graduate teachers who knew their subject but had no idea how to teach - one went bright red around girls so we gave up putting our hands up.

So yes, I have a soft spot for the ideal of comps.

Some would say they were grammars before state grammars existed and they remain grammars when few state grammars exists. Not all state grammars schools have grammar in the school name; don’t think the state Tiffin Schools in Kingston do whereas private Kingston Grammar School does. By contrast very few comprehensive schools have ‘comprehensive’ in their actual schools name.

…another big reason for the love of the old comprehensives was being a staff member, I could phone up the local education authority and get some advice or signposting to stuff. Now everything has become academised you have a lot more inefficiency as schools run themselves more and there’s more layers of management in each school. Obviously you have to have good local authority people but I was in good terms with them.

Just came across this old post.
Thought I’d update in case anyone happened to be interested.
Firstly, although finances were affected a little bit, it’s not actually made a huge difference. I managed to get loads of uniform 2nd hand and family helped out with bits and pieces. I don’t feel that my younger children have been affected at all.
DD1 is now just about at the end of her third year at the ‘grammar’ (independent fee paying) school.
She has truly honestly excelled! She is getting fantastic grades and learning skills I know for a fact she wouldn’t be getting at the local authority schools around here. But more importantly, she’s happy! The support we’ve all been given these last 3 years is above and beyond what I imagined it would be. Having worked in 3 different state secondary schools in the local area, I know that the staff just do not have the time or facilities to support in the way the grammar school has.
DD1 has made a number of friends - even with the rich kids and although the difference between our lives and theirs become obvious sometimes (think ski trips every February and the Maldives at Christmas), it seems to have become a point of curiosity and discussion, rather than bullying or snobbery. The other kids and her teachers also seem to love her eccentricity- which has only grown even more! Honestly, she’s like a some crazy sixty year old lady who thinks like a crossed between Rainman and Salvador Dali!
So… in all… so far so good! I couldn’t be more grateful to the school and beneficiaries to the school who have made it possible for her to be the person she is right now and given her the opportunities I know she wouldn’t have had at the local state schools.

On another note, DD2 had her transition day there today! She wanted to have a look at it, loved it, passed the entrance exams and interviews and has been awarded a generous bursary too. The bursary becomes a joint one for both of DDs and it’s worked out that I don’t have to pay any more for the fees than I am currently. It’s just 2 X uniform and sports kits and equipment. The bus fare would have been absolutely unaffordable so I’ve made the decision to do the school run myself- it’s less than 45 minutes so not horrific.

@Troisfoisfilles I posted on your thread originally. I'm glad it is working out for you. That your second DC has also been awarded a substantial bursary is testament to their ability.

Looking at what I said then I don't think I would say much different now to someone in the position you were in then. But I am glad it has worked out for your family.

I’ve only just seen this thread for the first time. Something similar happened in my family and it all worked out so I’d have advised you to go for it @Troisfoisfilles . I’m glad you did.

happy for daughters 1&2. How are things likely to shake down for #3? Just curious.

That’s a very good question that I get asked quite a lot. DD3 is very different from her elder sisters. Her current (year 5) teacher is the same one that taught DD1&2 previously. The first parents evening this year was memorable for his first words as I entered… ‘She’s very different to her sisters isn’t she?!’ She hated academics, does just enough to scrape through as ‘meeting expectations’ and hates Maths the most (DD1&2 highest achieved and favourite). But she’s the happiest one by far and the most sociable, so I’m not worried. She would hate the structure and workload of the independent school and although I’d never say it out loud, I do think she struggle with the entrance exam. We found a few practise tests for one online and she just looked confused, laughed and said that she’d have just ticked a random a, b, c or d as her answers for all of them 🤦‍♀️. This would be scary though, as she’s also the luckiest one (think, finds random £1 coins on the floor, wins 2 toys at the arcade from £1 grab machine etc), so would probably end up scoring high just from sheer luck!
Anyway, at the moment, she had strongly declared that she wants to go to the same (state) school as her friends and is looking forward to lounging around at home for an extra 2 hours after school before her sisters get home each day. I think she’s forgotten the fact that they get an extra 5 weeks holiday a year!
If however she changes her mind later this year when it would be time to do the entrance exam, I’m happy for her to have a go at it. I’d hate to build resentment for her that she never even had a chance. I just want them all to be happy more than anything

I would do it and talk to the school about your financial position. They may be able to help. Also, is there another parent involved? If so can you both do all you can to save for the next few years in case your other kids want to go as well?

Delighted to read your updates. Your DD3 also sounds like she too will do well, just on a different pathway than her sisters.

I’m so glad it all worked out. I only read your thread today, I was thinking at start of thread that of course DD1 must go there. And that if DD2 and DD3 managed to be accepted on almost full scholarship that they also get the opportunity. That is what makes it fair and equal for all. Not that one can’t go if they all can’t go.

Best of luck to you and your 3 DDs. You sound like such a lovely family.

Very interesting. Thank you for answering my question. Sounds like #3 will forge a different but still impressive path. My youngest sister did the same!