To send my eldest to grammar school knowing it’ll be a squeeze?

[Troisfoisfilles]

So my eldest just won a place at a really good grammar school in our area to start year 7 in September which is great.
She did so well in the entrance exam and interview that she was offered a scholarship and we have been awarded a brilliant bursary. Only trouble is, the bursary doesn’t cover everything and even the transport and uniform are a huge expense! It’s going to be a massive squeeze on finances. I also have two younger children who will no doubt miss out on little treats and things that I won’t be able to afford any longer 😞.
She is very intelligent and would do well at any school but I know for a fact that she won’t achieve full potential at a state school.
I originally applied for a place for her at the school I teach at. It’s a great school and she would do ok there but I don’t want just ok for her. For a start, she’s really quite eccentric and mature for her age. Kids similar to this at my school don’t really go down that well and are singled out by the others - kids are horrid!
I really believe she needs the small classes, discipline and pushiness she’d get at a grammar.
So am I being unreasonable in sending her?

@blueplantpop

How do you know that your child won’t do well at a state school. My DS narrowly missed out on a state grammar school and he has thrived at our local state school as he is in top sets for everything and a very short walk to school with neighbourhood kids. If at grammar, he would have been around the middle/bottom and a long bus journey. You should have considered these issues before discussing with your child the possibility of going to this private school - she has done well and it is too late for you to backtrack now I’m afraid

This was me. Borderline

Was told I could be top of a bottom school

Or

Bottom of a top school

Bottom school was local 10min walk, lots of friends going

Top school was a long walk to station train journey then another walk or bus and wouldn’t have known anyone

My brother went to a top school tho brainy, but I rem him leaving early and coming home late, tired then homework

I chose bottom school and did very well there

@Troisfoisfilles. See if they can offere any more help towards uniform etc

And yes check if the same is given twice.three times to same family

I get people are saying do the best for education but equally no point scrimping and struggling for the next 6/7yrs for her then another 4 on top for younger children

I still maintain it is going to be very difficult, especially as you have now said your 3 DDs receive Pupil Premium ie you are a low income family.

Even with the best intentions (full bursary, availability of 2nd hand uniform and equipment etc) I think there are so many additional extras (meals, trips, evenings) that it would be a struggle with 1 never mind 3 children.

But you seem very determined (a characteristic your DD has learned from you it seems) so I wish you and your DDs all the best.

FWIW, my son received a bursary for his 2 years of 6th form. Between L and U 6th my financial situation became very complex. As others have said the school will do everything they can to support a student so they can remain. They've seen it all and are very discreet.

Will you be able to afford for DCs 2 and 3 to take the entrance exam? What if they are only offered a smaller bursary? Bursaries on offer will depend on the school's financial situation at the time the offer is made. DCs 2 and 3 could do equally as well but not be offered as much.

Or are you going to hope that DCs 2 and 3 don't get wind of how DC1 has been favoured?

If money is already tight and you are already driving an old car, not buying new clothes etc then you can't afford this and you were foolish to put DD1 in for the entrance exam.

@TheOrigRights

I still maintain it is going to be very difficult, especially as you have now said your 3 DDs receive Pupil Premium ie you are a low income family.

Even with the best intentions (full bursary, availability of 2nd hand uniform and equipment etc) I think there are so many additional extras (meals, trips, evenings) that it would be a struggle with 1 never mind 3 children.

But you seem very determined (a characteristic your DD has learned from you it seems) so I wish you and your DDs all the best.

FWIW, my son received a bursary for his 2 years of 6th form. Between L and U 6th my financial situation became very complex. As others have said the school will do everything they can to support a student so they can remain. They've seen it all and are very discreet.

They are only PP til the end of this year as i only started teaching 5 years ago. Before that I was a student and on benefits. In our area, it’s PP for 6 years after a child would have received free school meals. So although we are not well off, I am not hugely low income now

@TatianaBis Well, you're right, because I paraphrased and what I actually said verbatim "with a different focus than straight "academics" "
But semantics aside, and also ignoring from your relative's state school's great pastoral care (which is irrelevant), my point was that it isn't just an academic decision (or a pastoral care one)

Smaller class sizes, better facilities, more individual attention, more extracurricular activities are just some of the factors at play. Depending on the child, these might have a greater or lesser impact, of course, but these are the sorts of things that are of benefit to all children, not just "academic" children.

And it is interesting that in another post on this thread, you yourself said, having been to an independent school, "I would not have achieved the same academically at a comprehensive" - that's also true for many children including those who aren't "academic", in that they achieved more at an independent school than a comprehensive. That difference in outcome is exactly why I said what I did.

@GnomeDePlume

Will you be able to afford for DCs 2 and 3 to take the entrance exam? What if they are only offered a smaller bursary? Bursaries on offer will depend on the school's financial situation at the time the offer is made. DCs 2 and 3 could do equally as well but not be offered as much.

Or are you going to hope that DCs 2 and 3 don't get wind of how DC1 has been favoured?

If money is already tight and you are already driving an old car, not buying new clothes etc then you can't afford this and you were foolish to put DD1 in for the entrance exam.

Also this!!! Which happened to a friend of mine. Eldest got a 90% scholarship. Same school a few years later was only in a position to offer a 60% scholarship for the same entrance exam results (actually, the younger child might have been slightly better exam results, which made it all the more unfortunate) Awkward.

When I had my son (unexpectedly after 17yrs ttc) we planned for him to go into private education as he was an only child and we wanted to give him the best we could. When he was 3 I unexpectedly got pregnant again and I had to revise my choices because i knew that I couldn't afford to send both privately.

They are both fairly bright and did really well at our local outstanding primary school. By the time DS1 was in yr 10 he was completely over school and education in general. He coasted through A levels with little interest and, although he went to uni, he wasn't really bothered and did the bare minimum to get his degree. DS2 worked much harder and was far more focussed but could never quite gain the grades he wanted and put himself under a lot of pressure. He's now at uni as an undergraduate and is sailing through on track for a first. He never lets up, has plan A, B, C and D and has already applied to do a masters.

What I'm trying to say is that just because they are bright doesn't mean they will always be interested in education and you don't know what the outcomes will be.

I have friends whose children went to the local 'needs improvement' secondary school, had less involvement from their parents than mine, and still got 8 or 9 As or A stars.

Personally I would not send one if I wasn't absolutely certain that I could afford to send them all, regardless of whether they chose to or not. Also, cutting back on things for your two younger children so their sister can go private is a little unfair now she's already had her treats.

It’s going to be a massive squeeze on finances. I also have two younger children who will no doubt miss out on little treats and things that I won’t be able to afford

This would worry me with regards to the others.

What sort of treats would they be missing out on?

@VivX

There’s no reason to ignore the fact that some state schools have better pastoral care than private, of which my nephew’s school is one example.

It’s precisely because I’ve been to independent school that I’m aware there’s little difference between independent and good grammars academically other than funding.

Which is where we started: Your claim independents are a “world away from state schools”, and my response that grammars are actually fairly similar and some outperform private.

This is in line with my later comment that I would not have done so well at a comprehensive which are nonselective and some of which at least have anti-intellectual student cultures.

Why do people always point out the fact that the child is likely to be the poor child amongst far more affluent children. There are huge gaps
In wealth within the state system too.

There will be plenty of parents just working hard to pay the school fees and prioritising their children's education at the independent school.

Your DD sounds focused and should be allowed the opportunity to attend the independent school if it is possible.

Those saying ‘it’s not a grammar school’ - I went to a school that called itself an “independent grammar school” - basically those who lived in the areas that had a grammar system could get in for free having passed the 11+, others who passed the entrance exam either paid fees or got an assisted place. I had an assisted place so was one of the poor kids- I did very well academically but there was definitely a huge gap between the rich kids and poor kids! Tbh I think the whole experience left me with a massive inferiority complex/ ‘imposter syndrome’ for my whole life.

I’m a teacher too but I really believe that bright kids will do well in any school. I teach in a local comp- every year some of my kids get grade 9s. All the teachers do the same qualifications, it is not a ‘better’ education. The only benefit is there may be smaller classes, and a generic ‘type’ of student- there will be much lower numbers if SEND and PP kids, but I’d that a good thing? I also think local friends and a local journey to school are really important. I used to travel for over an hour to get to school and had no local friends.

I live in an area with 2-3 grammar schools close by, but chose to send my DC to the “requires improvement” local secondary. I just think selective education is divisive and inherently unfair. Grammar/ independent schools aren’t full of the cleverest kids, just the most privileged ones.

All that said, if it is what your DD really wants to do I wouldn’t stand in her way now.

I personally think that very bright self motivated kids often do pretty well in fairly average schools . My son went to a mix at secondary level, fee paying and state comp— he did exactly as I would have predicted- pretty well , but not amazing because he was inherently lazy when it came to doing homework in subjects he wasn’t interested in. He has however done well career wise , because the comp gave him the ability to mix well with all sorts of people and the fee paying school gave him a certain kind of confidence. I certainly wouldn’t put yourself in financial problems to send her OP .

I don’t really understand this idea of inferiority on the basis of wealth.

What difference does it make? People are people.

I grew up with some people who had a lot more money and some with a lot less money than me.

The idea that I would feel inferior to people because they’re rich never occurred to me.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but there may well be a second hand uniform shop, which will be a fraction of the cost of full price. Or ask the school if any parents are willing to donate uniforms that aren’t needed for you. My dc are in private education and a good half the class are in pre-loved uniform.

@user1497787065

Why do people always point out the fact that the child is likely to be the poor child amongst far more affluent children. There are huge gaps In wealth within the state system too.

There will be plenty of parents just working hard to pay the school fees and prioritising their children's education at the independent school.

Your DD sounds focused and should be allowed the opportunity to attend the independent school if it is possible.

I think posters are trying to get OP to be realistic about her situation here nothing wrong with that.

I noticed how you typed plenty of parents (plural). That is not OP though unfortunately.
Some of these comments who are stating they have paid fees are probably not a single parent to 3 trying to manage.

@TatianaBis I said there were many factors which might or might not be relevant to a particular child. That your nephew's school has good pastoral care is great for your nephew but not really the point.

"there’s little difference between independent and good grammars academically" I am not sure how many times I can say it is more than an academic decision. I said "independent schools are a different world to state schools for many reasons"
Good state grammar schools still have 30 pupils in a class, for example.
But this is also completely irrelevant since apparently there isn't a state grammar within a 50 mile radius of the OP.

@Thoosa - Of course there are private grammars. Some grammars immediately went private as soon as the move to abolish them started. Unless you’re interpreting “grammar school” in some way other than “selective secondary open to all”.

Grammar school - state school, non-fee paying, access by passing 11+ exam

Private school - fee-paying. They may have an entrance exam, but it's not the 11+.

They are separate. And it's really important to know this. My DD's grammar mainly has girls with fairly well-off parents but there are also plenty of girls from less well-off families.

In a fee-paying school, everyone will be from a rich family, except pupils on scholarships.

This can mean that those on scholarships are bullied or feel different from the others.

@VivX

The point being that pastoral care can be better at state schools than private.

I understand you think there's a big divide between independents and grammars I just don't agree. My independent school had 30 per class until sixth form, and not a huge amount of individual attention, which wasn't really necessary given the selective entrance. It did have amazing grounds though.

In a fee-paying school, everyone will be from a rich family, except pupils on scholarships.

Depends on your definition of 'rich'. By my interpretation this is fundamentally not true.

There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private school either with a lot of sacrifice or with financial help from GPs. Equally the number of scholarships and bursaries awarded by private schools has risen.

“There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private schools”

There is such a wide scope when it comes to what people see as “ bogstandard” though. Someone up thread talked about having a BMW but not a newer model, and going on holiday abroad but “only” to somewhere like Portugal. Both those things are out of reach for many what I would consider middle class families!

None of my DCs have gone to an independent, however I have some experience of DCs going to different secondary schools. I have three of secondary age and they all attend different schools, 1 in state grammar and 2 in local comprehensives. No one is jealous of the others school and generally they enjoy discussions about what’s different about their school.
What it has helped with is they’ve all been able to forge their own paths and are not living in the shadow of siblings.

So don’t fear if your children end up at different schools in the future. I have picked the school most suited to the DC each time and it’s worked out fine

“There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private schools”

Not sure this is as true as it once was. Middle class families with one senior solicitor salary could afford private education when I was young. Now you need 2 salaries like medical consultant/GP salaries and even then it’s hard without grandparents or inheritance if you have more than one child.

@OnTheHillNotOverIt

“There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private schools”

Not sure this is as true as it once was. Middle class families with one senior solicitor salary could afford private education when I was young. Now you need 2 salaries like medical consultant/GP salaries and even then it’s hard without grandparents or inheritance if you have more than one child.

That isn’t really true. One of our neighbours sends their child to a private school. He’s a policeman, she’s a teacher. They don’t have a car or holidays.

*Words of wisdom from another Grandmother!

Don't waste your money. A bright child will do well anywhere and when it comes to university admissions, state school kids often benefit from contextual offers as their achievements are rightly recognised.*

This is, unfortunately rubbish (I wish to the bottom of my heart it were true). Some bright kids also may have other personality traits that mean that they will do OK anywhere. Many do not. They may well not get anywhere near university if the mental health issues from bullying and/or from being bored and frustrated overwhelm them during secondary school. You may be lucky enough to have grandchildren that fall into "would be fine anywhere" category, but the generalisation of this is breathtaking. It also of course depends on how bright is bright and the profile of the others in the school. Bright can mean just a little bit more academically able that the pack at the school, or bright can mean getting 100% in every maths test - when in some cases the next top mark is 60%.
Even when you have a maths teacher that is thrilled by this (and this is by no means guaranteed, there are even maths teachers that can feel threatened, but I was lucky enough to have one of the thrilled kind), and keen to give you advanced work, keeps you busy and try to look after you (and my Year 7 maths teacher was fantastic, I kept in touch with her long after I won the scholarship and moved to the private school) - that makes you the teacher's pet and means you are even more isolated from your peer group. It is lose-lose.

Clearly none of your grandchildren have spent every break in the library (because one was allowed to escape the bullying in the library) pulling out every book in the library starting from A, and reading at least the first few pages to see if they were interesting. Sure I was exposed to an extraordinary range of books that way, you can get through most of a school library like that in a year. But what I would have done to have swapped it for a Year 7 in the private school I eventually went to. I used to come home from school pretty much every day and go into the neighbour's garden (her daughter had grown up, and we had use of it) and cry - sometimes for hours at a time. Completely stopped once I went to the private school.

We don't know exactly what type of child the OP's DD1 is - the first or second kind. But the best guess is that she is the second. Why? She has been driving this! Kids who drive with this kind of intensity often know something about themselves that others don't. When I came out of the scholarship exam, my DM said that as she was waiting for me, she was watching all the other little girls coming out, and she wondered if any of them wanted that scholarship as much as I did. The OP's DD is pushing with all her might towards the independent school. That tells you an awful lot about what she thinks awaits her at the alternative. At 11, a child, and particularly a very bright child, is likely to have at least some insight into themselves. She could of course be wrong. But I suspect if she is wrong, and wants to then switch to the OP's school, that will not be difficult. Tell then the following year thanks but no thanks. Switching the other way will be impossible.