To send my eldest to grammar school knowing it’ll be a squeeze?

[Troisfoisfilles]

So my eldest just won a place at a really good grammar school in our area to start year 7 in September which is great.
She did so well in the entrance exam and interview that she was offered a scholarship and we have been awarded a brilliant bursary. Only trouble is, the bursary doesn’t cover everything and even the transport and uniform are a huge expense! It’s going to be a massive squeeze on finances. I also have two younger children who will no doubt miss out on little treats and things that I won’t be able to afford any longer 😞.
She is very intelligent and would do well at any school but I know for a fact that she won’t achieve full potential at a state school.
I originally applied for a place for her at the school I teach at. It’s a great school and she would do ok there but I don’t want just ok for her. For a start, she’s really quite eccentric and mature for her age. Kids similar to this at my school don’t really go down that well and are singled out by the others - kids are horrid!
I really believe she needs the small classes, discipline and pushiness she’d get at a grammar.
So am I being unreasonable in sending her?

Do they have one child in fee paying school? If so, that’s what I said. You need 2 big salaries for more than one child.
Even one is a lot of money to find out of taxed income.

Sorry missed last message. My last comment was replying to Blossomtoes.

@Wannago your experience seems to have been quite similar to dc1. He had to adapt to a system where being good at what you do, let alone work on schoolwork was seen as uncool (with all the consequence that there is when you are seen as a nerd etc…)
4 years on, It’s still influencing him now in his choice if university, the way he approaches work etc…

Dc2 was the quiet child no one knew about. That meant he wasn’t bullied. But it also meant he was forgotten by the teachers and would never ever have reached his potential because he was basically told a low average was him

@TatianaBis

In a fee-paying school, everyone will be from a rich family, except pupils on scholarships.

Depends on your definition of 'rich'. By my interpretation this is fundamentally not true.

There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private school either with a lot of sacrifice or with financial help from GPs. Equally the number of scholarships and bursaries awarded by private schools has risen.

There are also many children who go there because the grand parents are paying. So the family itself might not have that much money/fancy holidays etc…. But the child can still go there iyswim.

@TatianaBis
"I understand you think there's a big divide between independents and grammars"

I never said this.
I said between independent and state schools. There are only about 160 state grammars and 4000 state comprehensives.
The vast majority of state secondary schools are comprehensive. Grammar schools are not typical of the average state secondary experience; they aren't even in every county.
Additionally, the OP says "there are no state grammar schools within about 50 miles of here"

"The point being that pastoral care can be better at state schools than private"
I don't disagree that this might be the case for some state schools: I mean, the Brit school has proved that a state school can also produce successful pop singers, but it still isn't the actual point that I was making - which was that there is a range of factors that go into a good educational experience (not just academic attainment, and not just pastoral care either nor any other single factor)

"My independent school had 30 per class until sixth form, and not a huge amount of individual attention"
So what, though? All the independent schools near me have anything between 8-24 pupils in their senior classes - which is also irrelevant, of course.
The OP is (presumably) not thinking about sending her eldest to the school you went to (or to a school near me).
However, statistically, independent schools do have smaller classes than state schools. And anyway if class size were a factor (which it seems to be for the OP), then presumably, one would choose an independent school that does have smaller class sizes.

I don't disagree that there are individual examples where state schools out-perform independent schools but none of them appear to be near the OP.
Aside from academic attainment, there are gaps in things like the amount/breadth of extracurricular activities on offer, social mobility, earning potential etc between independent and state schools (these are the subject of reports/research, this isn't just my opinion)
Obviously, these are all examples - one would then pick the school that fitted their specific requirements.

Anyway, to my actual point: I maintain that all these factors are important and beneficial to all children (perhaps in different ratios/emphasis depending on the individual child), regardless of their academic ability and should therefore be offered to all the children in a family, not just to the eldest.

Anyway, it's fine if you don't agree with me.

It is also fine if you want to talk state grammar schools or pastoral care in state schools but I think that's a separate conversation and I'm going to step out of this tangent now.

@OnTheHillNotOverIt

Do they have one child in fee paying school? If so, that’s what I said. You need 2 big salaries for more than one child. Even one is a lot of money to find out of taxed income.

Yes, one child. On a policeman’s and teacher’s salaries. £17k a year.

@TatianaBis

In a fee-paying school, everyone will be from a rich family, except pupils on scholarships.

Depends on your definition of 'rich'. By my interpretation this is fundamentally not true.

There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private school either with a lot of sacrifice or with financial help from GPs. Equally the number of scholarships and bursaries awarded by private schools has risen.

IME it is. And girls whose parents have paid for a private school can be very bitchy , talking about what their parents earn, the holidays they go on, the cars they drive. Miserable if you're always the poor relation.

Th I scud just my experience; not all fee-paying schooos might be like this.

@OnTheHillNotOverIt

“There are plenty of bogstandard middle class families sending their kids to private schools”

Not sure this is as true as it once was. Middle class families with one senior solicitor salary could afford private education when I was young. Now you need 2 salaries like medical consultant/GP salaries and even then it’s hard without grandparents or inheritance if you have more than one child.

Plenty of Teacher, Solicitor, Accountant families at my DCs school. Many with more than one child

OP cannot afford this.

OP is already in old car, old clothes, old phone territory. OP is proposing to give all 3 of her DCs a cheese paring life so that just one of the DCs can go to private school.

I think OP is over reliant on her DD's maturity. She is still only 10. 10 year olds dont understand the full ramifications of decisions. 10 year olds promise all sorts. They promise they will clean out the rabbit/walk the dog/always do their homework. The reality is that they are still only 10.

Allowing a 10 year old to be responsible for hijacking the family finances is sheer folly.

That should have said 'But this is just my experience; not all fee-paying schools might be like this.'

@VivX

Your original statement was about state schools in general, I said I didn’t think it was true of grammar schools (nor some sixth form colleges either for that matter), my terms have been clear from the start. Indeed I drew a line between comprehensives and grammars.

As to your ‘actual’ point I disagreed with that several pages ago and cba to rehash it.

I would like to point out that there are many thousands of ordinary children, from ordinary families in ordinary houses, with parents who work in ordinary jobs, that go to their ordinary local state comprehensive schools, where there is reasonable pastoral care, and do very well and go to top universities. Like my children and virtually all of their friends.

MN would have you believe that this is impossible when in fact it is very very common.

It is nonsense to say that children won't achieve their potential in state schools.

Plenty of Teacher, Solicitor, Accountant families at my DCs school.
Many with more than one child

Are DC with 2 teacher, solicitor or accountant parents really the definition of "bog standard middle class"? Surely that puts them quite formally in something like the top 20% (I'm guessing) of household wealth in the UK?

Our local (non-London ) private school costs £1200 a month to send one child. That's £2400 for 2. Even living incredibly modestly you need a household income of 65K + to afford this. Beyond the range of "bog standard middle class" families. If you've paid off your mortgage or have help from extended family, then I agree it's possible.

* Plenty of Teacher, Solicitor, Accountant families at my DCs school.*
Many with more than one child

Can’t be south east!
And probably grandparents paying

My childrens prep school £16k each a year
And then next school is weekly boarding £36k each

Out of curiosity I looked at bursary/scholarship arrangements at my local private school:

Bursary is not expected to cover uniform, lunches or trips
Bursary has its own special conditions regarding student's progress, attitude and behaviour. Also the parent is expected to pay any fees on time.

Scholarships are up to £100/year and are expected to be spent on something relevant to the scholarship subject.

The extras can easily mount up. Uniform, lunches, school bus are unavoidable. Whatever %age of fees the OP will still have to pay will also have to be found. At my local private school a 95% bursary would still leave £800/year to be found plus the extras.

I would also be careful assuming that if she goes to the private grammar she will necessarily achieve greater things than at the local comprehensive. It doesn't always work like that.

I found the extras at state were far more than at private

Lunches and snacks included
After school clubs included
A school day trips included
And a thriving second hand shop

And none of the nonsense of bringing in constumes for assemblies or plays. Al provided by school

@Landedonfeet

And none of the nonsense of bringing in constumes for assemblies or plays. Al provided by school

Are you thinking more of primary level? Bringing in costumes for assemblies etc isn't really something that happens at secondary school.

Yes
But same applies re lunches, day trips etc

@RedskyThisNight

*Plenty of Teacher, Solicitor, Accountant families at my DCs school. Many with more than one child*

Are DC with 2 teacher, solicitor or accountant parents really the definition of "bog standard middle class"? Surely that puts them quite formally in something like the top 20% (I'm guessing) of household wealth in the UK?

Our local (non-London ) private school costs £1200 a month to send one child. That's £2400 for 2. Even living incredibly modestly you need a household income of 65K + to afford this. Beyond the range of "bog standard middle class" families. If you've paid off your mortgage or have help from extended family, then I agree it's possible.

Somebody said above that parents with those jobs can no longer afford Private but it’s not always the case. And in many cases both parents aren’t at this level of earnings, just one. I agree that these professions aren’t “bog standard” but they were they type of jobs that someone said meant you probably couldn’t afford Private with and it’s just not true in some areas. We are in Yorkshire though Which probably makes a huge difference in fees

@Landedonfeet

* Plenty of Teacher, Solicitor, Accountant families at my DCs school.* *Many with more than one child*

Can’t be south east!
And probably grandparents paying

My childrens prep school £16k each a year
And then next school is weekly boarding £36k each

As I said, Yorkshire No GPs paying as far as I know but they wouldn’t necessarily tell me

Put her in the independent school OP. You will always regret it if you don’t.

If you’re living in a deprived, rural area, you will no doubt find that many other families at the school aren’t exactly made of money either.

It could be life changing for her. You know what you need to do!

@Hoppinggreen
What’s the fees?

@GnomeDePlume

OP cannot afford this.

OP is already in old car, old clothes, old phone territory. OP is proposing to give all 3 of her DCs a cheese paring life so that just one of the DCs can go to private school.

I think OP is over reliant on her DD's maturity. She is still only 10. 10 year olds dont understand the full ramifications of decisions. 10 year olds promise all sorts. They promise they will clean out the rabbit/walk the dog/always do their homework. The reality is that they are still only 10.

Allowing a 10 year old to be responsible for hijacking the family finances is sheer folly.

Yes she is only 10 but not really a normal one. Remember I work in a secondary school full of teenagers. She is easily more mature than even most of the year 9’s. She has always been like this. She was trying to tell a joke about communism to some adults yesterday and after lots of blank looks, I had to explain to her that some adults don’t really understand what it really means. And I never said that all 3 of my children would receive a ‘cheese-paring life’ because I will send the eldest to private school. They will not want for anything that is deemed necessary or even some little treats. I explained further up what ‘a squeeze’ would mean for them all. I don’t care about a new car or a new phone or new clothes- that will come later in life for me maybe. My children are way more important than any of those things