Are we able to discuss the Black students trapped in Ukraine on here?

[EddyF]

I think I have read most threads on here about Ukraine/Russia but have not seen any discussions on this issue here.

I saw on TikTok (yup, TikTok has so much information/videos on what’s going on) that Jamaica has now managed to get its people out. It’s the majority of African students that are facing problems getting out. I’m wondering what African leaders are doing about it? A lot of the African-American blogs/comments are furious about this issue (rightly so).

@emuloc

Where is the posts that states all EE are racists?

No, but tell me what kind of picture you're and others are painting by saying Those countries are extremely racist. I mean, in the U.K. the obviously racist stares I get are from Eastern Europeans' or ' It’s not a secret Eastern Europe is not fond of non white people. ' ' Of course there is a ridiculous amount of racism in Eastern Europe' ' country in question (Poland) having massive issues with racism themselves.' ?

Massive issues, extremely racist, ridiculous amount of racism...
These are the words you are using. What I can see is massive reaction from local EE communities to help refugees. They are extremely welcoming to people running away from Ukraine, so many people decided to OPEN THEIR OWN HOUSES TO REFUGEES. How many people on this board would be willing to do that? There is war in Ukraine and people are distressed, there is lack of information and problems with communication.THIS IS NOT A NORMAL SITUATION. So maybe try to see how you can HELP by sharing useful information, contacts etc, like so many of these Eastern Europeans are currently doing.

Just some additional information on the topic.

1. An AMA on reddit from a Reuters journalist directly on the ground asked about this:

www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/t4ebff/i_am_a_reuters_reporter_on_the_ground_in_ukraine/hyy3ny0/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

1. Apologies from Ukrainian authorities for actions of some border guards, confirming there is no policy:

twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1498387997070434305?s=20&t=4tiUmzRVYV8Z6f1F47OAyA

People are quite rightly sharing what is going on in Ukraine. It is not being made up by people with nothing better to do. There are news reports ect. If a picture is being painted that does not look to good, it is not the fault of posters talking about issues which people like them selves are facing either here or in Ukraine.

An interesting thread written by people who have prob never been to Eastern Europe. Currently I am in Poland and I can tell you that the queue at the boarder is 30 hours...people from Ukraine are allowed to hop over the boarder without much trouble..none Ukranie people obvs are going to require more securtiy checks.
What I do know....people here have been offering rooms in their houses to people (I have not seen it specified that you must be white) collection points are overflowing with donations, people have been driving to the boarder to offer lifts to people and help in anyway. What has everyone commenting here done!!!
Also to the lady that said Eastern Europeans stare at her....I know this is rude (I live in Poland and speak English in supermarkets and people stand with their mouths open) I can tell you that in my town 1 hour from Warsaw we have no poc....If a poc came into the town people would stare just becasue for some of them it would be the first time they had seen in person a poc.

I am one of the people who has stated the fact that there are massive problems in many Eastern European countries, there are problems with many other issues such as press freedom, lgbt rights etc as well.
Many of the people opening their houses to refugees might not open them to non white refugees. And no many of the refugees will not return back home. This has been ongoing for hundreds of years (anyone ever researched the origin of the quintessential British dish of fish and chips?).
People feel more comfortable helping people like themselves. It is called unconscious bias.
And I say this as someone of Eastern European origin whose father was a combatant and then a refugee following a Russian Invasion and yes I have donated to one of the appeals.

Those on Instagram, Lovely Lydia has some stories on this that are well worth a read.

@MangshorJhol

I posted quite patiently on the previous thread but was told repeatedly that raising any questions about racism without saying that Putin was the aggressor made us ‘woke British women.’

I then tried to talk about the international refugee regime itself which is quite racist (in its origins and operations)- I am an academic. I have been writing about it for over a decade and I teach this stuff (race and migration) at a big US university. A poster told me my understanding of it was ‘rudimentary’ and then when I posted some links from my UG reading list told me she didn’t have time to read random stuff on the internet.

So in general I gave up.

I didn't post on that thread because I'm honestly shattered but it all. So fed up having people deny racism in all the various forms it shows up in. However, I read the thread and agreed with every single one of your posts. It's honestly appalling that so much conditioning in the west leads people to believe that refugees only look like a particular type of person from a particular type of place, there needs to be a massive overhaul of education on this topic.

@RitaJosephina are you saying that it is best if we only focus right now on helping Ukrainians in all ways possible (food, housing, bedding, toiletries etc) before getting down to the nittty gritty of it?

This would mean in basic terms that we in the west, look at housing, evacuating, resettling etc Ukrainians and giving them a sense of normality. Then waaaaaaay later, a couple of generations later, we can address the POC and their issues. Just as many countries and communities are concerned with their connections to Ukraine, surprise surprise, there are many people who have relatives who are POC who live over in EE, and we know the shi$ that gets posted through their doors, the racial bullying their kids have to live with, the sexual bullying that their wives face daily, and so sorry that you don't want for it to be on a public forum. But as you said, let's all huddle together and mind map how to save the white Christian Ukrainians, the others don't really matter so much do they?

I can't understand why saying Eastern Europe is racist is so controversial. The UK itself is a racist place so imagine that but on battery acid. Most of the world is racist. Anti-blackness is one of the few principles that unites the world.

@VladmirsPoutine

I can't understand why saying Eastern Europe is racist is so controversial. The UK itself is a racist place so imagine that but on battery acid. Most of the world is racist. Anti-blackness is one of the few principles that unites the world.

Agree wholeheartedly, but I would add no person or country is exempt from being racist. Every country. Although I do find it scarier in places like Eastern Europe where you stand out, and it's so overt.

@barms90

An interesting thread written by people who have prob never been to Eastern Europe. Currently I am in Poland and I can tell you that the queue at the boarder is 30 hours...people from Ukraine are allowed to hop over the boarder without much trouble..none Ukranie people obvs are going to require more securtiy checks. What I do know....people here have been offering rooms in their houses to people (I have not seen it specified that you must be white) collection points are overflowing with donations, people have been driving to the boarder to offer lifts to people and help in anyway. What has everyone commenting here done!!! Also to the lady that said Eastern Europeans stare at her....I know this is rude (I live in Poland and speak English in supermarkets and people stand with their mouths open) I can tell you that in my town 1 hour from Warsaw we have no poc....If a poc came into the town people would stare just becasue for some of them it would be the first time they had seen in person a poc.

Ah yes you would be referring to me. Let me assure you I can tell the difference between general curious stares and stares of contempt. You would have to see it to believe it. But ofcourse that cannot have anything to do with racism. I am sure people arriving in the U.K. know there are a lot of non white people here, thanks to the internet. I have seen all sort of people dress and look in all sorts of ways and make sure I don’t make anyone feel uncomfortable or that I’m judging them for how they look, no matter what country I am in. My experiences also happened on holiday in Western Europe and not just in the U.K. Maybe it’s a cultural thing and not a racist thing, it’s probably all in my head...

@VladmirsPoutine

I can't understand why saying Eastern Europe is racist is so controversial. The UK itself is a racist place so imagine that but on battery acid. Most of the world is racist. Anti-blackness is one of the few principles that unites the world.

Yes. But better not talk about it eh, in case it upsets the racists.

Russian families are evacuated alongside Ukrainian, and I can assure that whatever issues Ukraine might have with racism, I'd prefer to be Nigerian there rather than Russian.

This is an appalling statement to make. Why is it that whenever there is a conversation about racism faced by black people, apologists always make a reductive comparison to the plight of others. Unless you are a Nigerian in Ukraine desperately trying to flee for your life, you have zero idea of whether that is what you would "prefer".

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

Russian families are evacuated alongside Ukrainian, and I can assure that whatever issues Ukraine might have with racism, I'd prefer to be Nigerian there rather than Russian.

This is an appalling statement to make. Why is it that whenever there is a conversation about racism faced by black people, apologists always make a reductive comparison to the plight of others. Unless you are a Nigerian in Ukraine desperately trying to flee for your life, you have zero idea of whether that is what you would "prefer".

You simply don't understand what is happening there at the moment.

@TeaAddict235 no, I'm saying go on Twitter and share information for POC how they can access help when they have problems crossing the border. Many organisations in Poland and other neighbouring countries have spoken to ambassadors of these countries and shared useful information with contact numbers etc. What you are doing here on this board is only adding to propaganda and helping putin. There are already voices on twitter and facebook saying that maybe he was right invading Ukraine, because these are awful people etc. The only thing you have done here is reinforced your own views on EE = racist. No amount of context can change your opinion ( that there are different rules for Ukrainian passport holders and for other nationals, which obviously creates tensions at the border). It's understandable, it's difficult situation for everyone involved, but there are people in Eastern Europe genuinely helping everyone that escaped to their countries from Ukraine.

How dare you tell people who experience racism, know what it looks like, that they are mistaken and don’t know what they are talking about. You are white so you don’t see what it’s like for them. You choose not to take a step back and consider what it must be like for ethnic minorities to be in majority white countries that do not have a culture of diversity and inclusion.

How dare you tell them that it’s about their language and not about their race. Have you walked in their shoes for a minute and understand their lived experience or is it just your white perspective that matters?

There we go. First accusation that we are ‘helping Putin.’ 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Ah yes you would be referring to me. Let me assure you I can tell the difference between general curious stares and stares of contempt. You would have to see it to believe it. But ofcourse that cannot have anything to do with racism. I am sure people arriving in the U.K. know there are a lot of non white people here, thanks to the internet. I have seen all sort of people dress and look in all sorts of ways and make sure I don’t make anyone feel uncomfortable or that I’m judging them for how they look, no matter what country I am in. My experiences also happened on holiday in Western Europe and not just in the U.K. Maybe it’s a cultural thing and not a racist thing, it’s probably all in my head...

Fair enough if you feel the stares are more I am just trying to show the other side of the coin you wouldn't believe how white Poland is. Even in Warsaw poc are few and far between this is part of the problem.

[quote TeaAddict235]@RitaJosephina are you saying that it is best if we only focus right now on helping Ukrainians in all ways possible (food, housing, bedding, toiletries etc) before getting down to the nittty gritty of it?

This would mean in basic terms that we in the west, look at housing, evacuating, resettling etc Ukrainians and giving them a sense of normality. Then waaaaaaay later, a couple of generations later, we can address the POC and their issues. Just as many countries and communities are concerned with their connections to Ukraine, surprise surprise, there are many people who have relatives who are POC who live over in EE, and we know the shi$ that gets posted through their doors, the racial bullying their kids have to live with, the sexual bullying that their wives face daily, and so sorry that you don't want for it to be on a public forum. But as you said, let's all huddle together and mind map how to save the white Christian Ukrainians, the others don't really matter so much do they? [/quote]
That is because black and brown lives do not matter. They are an inconvenient footnote. Deal with the white Ukrainians first and centuries later we can talk about these other people whose lives aren’t that important.

"Helping putin". Oh my, really?

@forinborin you know absolutely NOTHING about me and what I do or don't understand. If you think my knowledge on this matter is simply limited to a few social media vids and thread on Mumsnet, you are very much mistaken. But thanks for the patronising response, it's gone a really long way to expand my understanding.

[quote forinborin]Just some additional information on the topic.

1. An AMA on reddit from a Reuters journalist directly on the ground asked about this:

www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/t4ebff/i_am_a_reuters_reporter_on_the_ground_in_ukraine/hyy3ny0/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

1. Apologies from Ukrainian authorities for actions of some border guards, confirming there is no policy:

twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1498387997070434305?s=20&t=4tiUmzRVYV8Z6f1F47OAyA[/quote]
Even a Ukrainian MP can acknowledge what we are saying, apologises and condemns it. But the folk at MN just seem to make excuses.

mobile.twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1498387994759335944

Yes @emuloc see @RitaJosephina’s post about how this is contributing to propaganda.

Last thread had these following excuses:

• bunch of people eye rolling and saying ‘why bring race into everything?’
• is this evidence verified?
• if it is then let’s not amplify it because it gives Putin ammunition
• bad things happen in war
• it’s just border control policy
• it’s the job of the countries themselves to rescue people so really it’s Nigeria/India/South Africa’s fault
• tonight we must think of Ukrainians only
• it’s a Ukrainian first policy and it’s totally justified in terms of war

We should do a MN bingo and see how many we can tick off. I spot quite a few on this thread already.

@RitaJosephina, are there any non-white Ukrainians? What do you think happens when the turn up at the border? Are they interrogated more than a white Ukrainian? Are they likely to be under suspicion and asked to prove that they are truly Ukrainian? Or do you suppose they are breezily sent through like their white compatriots?

I can't understand why saying Eastern Europe is racist is so controversial