Are we able to discuss the Black students trapped in Ukraine on here?

[EddyF]

I think I have read most threads on here about Ukraine/Russia but have not seen any discussions on this issue here.

I saw on TikTok (yup, TikTok has so much information/videos on what’s going on) that Jamaica has now managed to get its people out. It’s the majority of African students that are facing problems getting out. I’m wondering what African leaders are doing about it? A lot of the African-American blogs/comments are furious about this issue (rightly so).

Where is the posts that states all EE are racists?

Yes - and 16 posts in, there we have it

A 21 year old Indian student was killed today in Russian shelling. I think lots of Pakistani and Indians are in Ukraine to study. Their parents must be in pieces.

@Orchidflower1 yes you're right - I'd like to know the demographics of the mods too. I think I can guess though.

@TooTiredToSleepRightNow

Forinborin sorry who is ‘immediately’ jumping to conclusions, have you ignored all the black and POC stating what is happening or shall we just ignore them. Numerous well documented reports, like I mentioned condemn this and move on, why are you so adamant that it is all propaganda, that somehow only white people can pick reliable sources and us non white people believe anything we see, You are proving everyone’s point here.

I did not say that it is ALL propaganda.

I have seen some pieces that are very clearly fabricated propaganda. Because I know how the evacuation effort is working on the ground.

I've seen videos where a bunch of black and brown guys were saying that they were denied boarding despite having train tickets due to racism. They were probably denied boarding, that is true, as tickets are no longer accepted - from anyone, all boarding is strictly needs based. Children and women first. All of my friends' dads and husbands were not allowed on trains too.

Then there's a video where they reached the checkpoint at the border and were sent back to a different one (to the end of it). This is again probably true as there are different procedures for Ukrainian (now entering according to a simplified procedure) and non-Ukrainian passport holders. It is the same in the UK, even in peaceful times.

An article linked above saying that Indian students are being killed by shells and suffering from the lack of supplies in Kharkiv is also true. Such is the situation on the ground at the moment. It is horrible.

Is there a racism problem in Ukraine, are there instances of extortion on the border, do I believe that, everything being equal, a non-white person would be treated worse than a white person - yes.

Do I think that there are government instructions to put "No Blacks" signs as claimed above? No. Russian families are evacuated alongside Ukrainian, and I can assure that whatever issues Ukraine might have with racism, I'd prefer to be Nigerian there rather than Russian.

Just to clarify that I am not saying all or most Eastern Europeans are racist!! I am saying that the regimes can support ouvert and covert Racism to deflect from the real issues - like press freedom, reproductive rights, lgbt rights etc (not talking specifically about Ukraine but more Poland and Hungary)

Well the amount of racist post that seems to go unchecked by the mods is quite telling I think.

@emuloc

Well I think people will know that this is happening to black/ brown people now. Some people will always have something to say about it being this and that for some reason.

Even tbe Daily Mail is reporting in this - you know, the Daimy Mail

With readers green arrowing the comments deploring the racism at tbe borders!

For some people, racism does not exist or is a tiny, inconsequential issue. People of colour make too much fuss about nothing and their experience does not matter. Their lives do not matter. What matters is what a white person thinks the situation is. If a white person says racism isn’t a big issue, then brown and black people are just troublemakers who don’t even understand their own experiences. Their voices do not matter. White voices and lives are what matters and have credibility or value.

BBC had extensive coverage today if Poland and Ukraine border and they were moving Indian people and African people through

The Indian govt seems to have been pretty on the ball with organising evac, organising temp accommodation and so on, the volunteer who was being interviewed was more vague with regard to what had been organised by various African govts

The racism on the other thread was the same old same old MN denial that anything involving white people doing horrible things to black and brown people is ever anything to do with racism

@BigHuff

Interesting, did not know that. I still cannot see how it is Ukraine's fault that India decided to station their evacuation team in Belgorod, across the front line, that Indian students got trapped in the city as a result, and one sadly died from a Russian rocket.

Now that I have written it, it actually sounds crazy.

Says it all really when the Daiky Mail and its readers are less racist than Mumsnet. Just saying 🤷🏼‍♀️

@emuloc

Well the amount of racist post that seems to go unchecked by the mods is quite telling I think.

I could not agree with you more.

Mumsnet is becoming a relic of the past. An online institution that supports prejudice and enables racists to stand on a platform and gaslight experiences of racism, ridicule and denigrate the lives experiences of people of colour.

@Why2why

For some people, racism does not exist or is a tiny, inconsequential issue. People of colour make too much fuss about nothing and their experience does not matter. Their lives do not matter. What matters is what a white person thinks the situation is. If a white person says racism isn’t a big issue, then brown and black people are just troublemakers who don’t even understand their own experiences. Their voices do not matter. White voices and lives are what matters and have credibility or value.

This.

@forinborin obviously it isn’t. And no one has said it has. In fact I said the Indian situation is a bit more complex than what is happening with some African students because of Modi’s foreign policy. I may even have said it twice.

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle

Says it all really when the Daiky Mail and its readers are less racist than Mumsnet. Just saying 🤷🏼‍♀️

You could not make it up.

@MangshorJhol

The international refugee regime began with the 1951 convention which defined refugees in European terms. This is why many South Asian countries to this day haven’t signed it. (Definition was later changed).

This by Ulrike Krause.
link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41268-020-00205-9
Pia Oberoi on why India and Pakistan didn’t sign:
refuge.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/refuge/article/view/21228/19899

I also generally recommend the work of Peter Gattrell on refugees in general.

Thankyou

Yes, it is appalling. I think some of it stems from a recognition that in reality lots of those who flee Ukraine may not return there, so then some of the Eastern European border countries have decided that they do not wish to have more potentially permanent non-white immigrants, whilst being happy to take in their "own". So I think it is sort of about Ukrainian / Polish guards enforcing what Poland/Romania "want". It is racist and totally unacceptable. Eastern Europe is generally more racist than Western Europe (not to say that racism is not everywhere, sadly, just that it is more prevalent in EE, which is less racially diverse), so this is not that surprising to me.

It is quite possible to admire the bravery of Ukrainians for fighting and the efforts made in certain border countries to support people fleeing AND condemn this racism without reservation.

Ukraine is not without problems - present and past - it is further along the journey towards being a county that is respectful of rights than Russia and I fully support it in its quest to remain democratic and independent, but that doesn't mean that I thought it was brilliant before Putin invaded, or that I think that the conditions in Ukraine for POC prior to invasion and since don't require condemnation.

Actually I also posted on the other thread about non white students in Russia and the racism they face. (Again lots of medical and engineering students from Asia and Africa).

[quote Why2why]@shola198978, I too often think that Mumsnet turns a blind eye to racism but are quick to respond to the cries of racists who claim to be the victims of people not putting up with their rubbish.

Mumsnet is slow to censor racist posts or ban racists.[/quote]
Yes totally agreed - maybe mumsnet would like to comment on this?

@Why2why

For some people, racism does not exist or is a tiny, inconsequential issue. People of colour make too much fuss about nothing and their experience does not matter. Their lives do not matter. What matters is what a white person thinks the situation is. If a white person says racism isn’t a big issue, then brown and black people are just troublemakers who don’t even understand their own experiences. Their voices do not matter. White voices and lives are what matters and have credibility or value.

you summed this up better than I ever coud.

Yes. Maybe they would.