Are we able to discuss the Black students trapped in Ukraine on here?

[EddyF]

I think I have read most threads on here about Ukraine/Russia but have not seen any discussions on this issue here.

I saw on TikTok (yup, TikTok has so much information/videos on what’s going on) that Jamaica has now managed to get its people out. It’s the majority of African students that are facing problems getting out. I’m wondering what African leaders are doing about it? A lot of the African-American blogs/comments are furious about this issue (rightly so).

Paraic O’Brien addressing this on Ch4 News. Issues with the sound, but hope they return to his report later.

I thought the borders were closed by Ukraine to men of fighting age, with the expectation they defend their country. Isn't any male making his way to the border going to be suspected of being a draft dodger.

The international refugee regime began with the 1951 convention which defined refugees in European terms. This is why many South Asian countries to this day haven’t signed it. (Definition was later changed).

This by Ulrike Krause.
link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41268-020-00205-9
Pia Oberoi on why India and Pakistan didn’t sign:
refuge.journals.yorku.ca/index.php/refuge/article/view/21228/19899

I also generally recommend the work of Peter Gattrell on refugees in general.

There was a very long thread on this but it was deleted. IIRC even in the face of on the ground footage a lot of people were like "HmM nOt QùItÉ SuRę tHis Iz TrUè."

@Hshuznw

There’s a lot of racism involved in the fall out of Russia’s invasion. From the treatment of black people in Ukraine to the media’s portrayal of the invasion against other invasions and wars (I mean, there are journalists who are even saying / writing that things like this don’t happen to countries like Ukraine).

People don’t like it when racism is called out though. Calling out racism is a far greater offence than challenging it or accepting something is racist.

And as PP said, it is very very possible to feel the utmost sympathy for Ukrainians, whilst also being disappointed at racism. The two are not mutually exclusive.

This!

@Trainbear

So you expect black students to fight in the Ukrainian war while Ukrainians flee? Or you mean the men? Because If they are only letting out women and children surely ant black women and their children should have the same priority as Ukrainians.

Also. Going to a nation to study does not mean you need to stay and fight their war.

Many Americans working and studying there fled and no one expected them to stay and fight. Funny.

I do wonder whether the "oh, but it's probably not racism...maybe it's because they're men/non-citizens/it's Tuesday" brigade actually believe the excuses they are making. Or whether they are actually just racists, and it serves their agenda better to gaslight and obfuscate and make people doubt the evidence of their own eyes and ears.

Yes I can donate to say the Red Cross and say that I find all this talk of ‘but this is happening in a civilised country’ deeply racist. I think there was one journalist who said, this is a civilised country not like Iraq. As if Iraq wasn’t literally home to the one of the world’s oldest civilisations…

[quote MangshorJhol]For what it’s worth, Indian students are also trapped in Ukraine but the situation is a bit more complex. One student was killed yesterday. The Indian govt has sided with Russia and abstained at the UNSC. One MP in Parliament said that those studying medicine in Ukraine had failed to clear Indian medical school exams and were clearly second grade students (implying that they were less worthy of evacuation). But the MEA is trying to organise an evacuation of some sorts I gather.

www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/1/indian-student-killed-in-ukraine-amid-criticism-over-evacuation[/quote]
India asked its citizens to leave Ukraine on Feb 15th (soft warning) and immediately on Feb 20th. Way before the war started on the 24th.

Now they are in the same situation as the rest of Ukrainians. Yes, they are in bunkers and there is no food, essential medicines or water in Kharkiv for them as the city is under siege. It is horrendous. It is the same for everyone else though.

[quote MarshmallowSwede]@Trainbear

So you expect black students to fight in the Ukrainian war while Ukrainians flee? Or you mean the men? Because If they are only letting out women and children surely ant black women and their children should have the same priority as Ukrainians.

Also. Going to a nation to study does not mean you need to stay and fight their war.

Many Americans working and studying there fled and no one expected them to stay and fight. Funny.[/quote]
This.

I think the problem is that it’s easy to say ‘leave now.’ But as someone who was an international student in the UK on a limited stipend this was easier said than done. I couldn’t for instance, have bought a ticket home at short notice. I actually didn’t go home for two years.

Just want to point out that being black doesn’t mean your country of origin is in Africa…

There has been issues with black people who were from non Africa country (some of them in Europe!). I read that as the country in question (Poland) having massive issues with racism themselves.
Let’s try and not get more preconceived ideas on the top of it.

Yes the deletion post said: we are looking into one or two things behind the scenes and then that was that. Thread was gone.

There was one poster who kept insisting we were all heartless bastards who were saying that Ukraine deserved this. And no amount of ‘can you find me one person who said this’ would deter her from saying it again and again. It was all very tiring.

@shola198978, I too often think that Mumsnet turns a blind eye to racism but are quick to respond to the cries of racists who claim to be the victims of people not putting up with their rubbish.

Mumsnet is slow to censor racist posts or ban racists.

@MangshorJhol

I think the problem is that it’s easy to say ‘leave now.’ But as someone who was an international student in the UK on a limited stipend this was easier said than done. I couldn’t for instance, have bought a ticket home at short notice. I actually didn’t go home for two years.

For India specifically, there have been flights arranged by the government (I think in partnership with Air India). Have no idea whether they were free or commercial.

Forinborin sorry who is ‘immediately’ jumping to conclusions, have you ignored all the black and POC stating what is happening or shall we just ignore them. Numerous well documented reports, like I mentioned condemn this and move on, why are you so adamant that it is all propaganda, that somehow only white people can pick reliable sources and us non white people believe anything we see, You are proving everyone’s point here.

I agree with Shola198978. I was not too impressed that the last thread was deleted. MN should not have done that. Lots of posters were posting in good faith. It should have been moderated better if need be, not pulled altogether. It happens too much when race is a factor. It is not good enough.

Given that none of the COVID evacuation flights to India were free I can assume these weren’t as well. Anyway as I said the Indian situation is complicated by Modi’s stance on this issue. (Modi being India’s right wing Hindu PM who has backed Putin). So the MEA can’t be overly critical of Russia.

@forinborin

*India asked its citizens to leave Ukraine on Feb 15th (soft warning) and immediately on Feb 20th. Way before the war started on the 24th.

Now they are in the same situation as the rest of Ukrainians. Yes, they are in bunkers and there is no food, essential medicines or water in Kharkiv for them as the city is under siege. It is horrendous. It is the same for everyone else though.*

I read earlier today (in an article about the Indian student who was killed) that Indian students were being directed to evacuate via the Russian border but I cannot find the article now. Pretty sure it was in the Guardian. Ah! Found it.

Ukrainian nationals can enter the EU without visa on the 90 days visa free travel agreement of 2017 (and can then get protected status for up to 3 years without having to go through the usual asylum application).
Non-Ukraninian nationals cannot use this arrangement, therefore they are processed via a separate flow and their processing at the border takes more time.
Yesterday, Poland had already welcomed 9,000 non-Ukrainian refugees entering Poland from Ukraine.
Maybe people are upset, because they opened their borders and homes to all people and that's the thank you they get? There are many testimonies of POC arriving in Poland saying that they were welcomed with open arms and yet you come here saying that ALL Eastern Europeans are racist. twitter.com/abikedabiri/status/1498007955437932548
twitter.com/ARanganathan72/status/1498376044373745664
twitter.com/nzekiev/status/1498367967041626120

Did anyone say ALL Eastern Europeans were racist?

[quote Why2why]@shola198978, I too often think that Mumsnet turns a blind eye to racism but are quick to respond to the cries of racists who claim to be the victims of people not putting up with their rubbish.

Mumsnet is slow to censor racist posts or ban racists.[/quote]
This is an ongoing issue. To be fair like in all work places some people are better at their jobs than others. Some mods are better than others. I’d love to know the demographics of the mods.

I can't quite understand the surprise about deep rooted Racism in Eastern Europe. Remember the treatment of refugees in Hungary in summer 2015? Zelensky is known to be very close to some of the Ukrainian oligarchs. There are very dodgy right wing organisations fighting along the regular army and at a lot of the Ukrainian protests in the west you can see the flag of an organisation that fought alongside the German army during WW2.
It is not as clear cut good vs evil as some would like toake it out.
That does not change the fact that Putin is a power crazed dictator who is deeply corrupt, supported by oligarchs and that Russian troops should not be in Ukraine.
And western troops should not have been in Afghanistan and Iraq.
And the borders should be open for all refugees, whatever the colour of their skin.