Are we able to discuss the Black students trapped in Ukraine on here?

[EddyF]

I think I have read most threads on here about Ukraine/Russia but have not seen any discussions on this issue here.

I saw on TikTok (yup, TikTok has so much information/videos on what’s going on) that Jamaica has now managed to get its people out. It’s the majority of African students that are facing problems getting out. I’m wondering what African leaders are doing about it? A lot of the African-American blogs/comments are furious about this issue (rightly so).

It is so sad and infuriating to keep hearing of these things happening to people of colour. The reports coming out of Ukraine, regarding the treatment of poc is deplorable, and inexcusable, war or no war.

aljazeera have been far more objective than the UK media throughout this. Good for them.

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]More reporting of problems encountered www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/5/thats-poland-now-walk-arab-students-plight-out-of-ukraine[/quote]
This is so sad. Totally unacceptable and I’m now finding it hard to be caught up in the plight of white Ukrainians. It’s traumatising too read about the added racial discrimination that people of colour have to deal with whilst also facing the same horrors of war that white Ukrainians are facing.

I’m losing the will to care.

I hear you @Why2Why.

So I’m sorry to hijack this thread but I know if I post a new one on MN, I’ll get the usual racism denial trope, and I don’t have the mental energy for that.

I just want to know if my husband is gaslighting me over this, or if I’m being stupid.

I keep debating Ukraine and racism with H. He’s white, I’m not. I keep arguing about the racist elements in the response to Ukraine - the way the media has reported it, the response of the western world, and the response to refugees. H keeps finding a defence to it all.

I’ve mentioned several times that if people have found themselves caring more about Ukraine than they did about Iraq and Afghanistan, then they need to ask themselves why and address any racism they have. H says I’m therefore saying to support Ukraine is racist. I say of course I’m not. He has repeated several times whenever we have discussed this that I believe to support Ukraine is racist.

I find that really offensive. Of course I don’t think that. He’s taking what I’m saying out of context. But he keeps saying that’s what I’m saying.

After I got really upset he started saying I believe to support Ukraine is racist, but because of XYZ, and starts to include the context of that statement.

But he know denies that he ever said that I believe to support Ukraine is racist, full stop. He now claims that I never let him finish the sentence whenever he said that.

That’s mind games right? He is deliberately twisting what I’m saying to make it sound like I’m saying something offensive, to give himself the moral high ground.

@Donewithracism

So I’m sorry to hijack this thread but I know if I post a new one on MN, I’ll get the usual racism denial trope, and I don’t have the mental energy for that.

I just want to know if my husband is gaslighting me over this, or if I’m being stupid.

I keep debating Ukraine and racism with H. He’s white, I’m not. I keep arguing about the racist elements in the response to Ukraine - the way the media has reported it, the response of the western world, and the response to refugees. H keeps finding a defence to it all.

I’ve mentioned several times that if people have found themselves caring more about Ukraine than they did about Iraq and Afghanistan, then they need to ask themselves why and address any racism they have. H says I’m therefore saying to support Ukraine is racist. I say of course I’m not. He has repeated several times whenever we have discussed this that I believe to support Ukraine is racist.

I find that really offensive. Of course I don’t think that. He’s taking what I’m saying out of context. But he keeps saying that’s what I’m saying.

After I got really upset he started saying I believe to support Ukraine is racist, but because of XYZ, and starts to include the context of that statement.

But he know denies that he ever said that I believe to support Ukraine is racist, full stop. He now claims that I never let him finish the sentence whenever he said that.

That’s mind games right? He is deliberately twisting what I’m saying to make it sound like I’m saying something offensive, to give himself the moral high ground.

Yes. He is being ridiculous and gaslighting. I support Ukraine but also see the double standards and racism that abounds. The media ‘s narrative is so much more human, gives them a lot more dignity than the give to refugees from other parts of the world. Refugees from other parts of the world are dehumanised and demonised.

I don’t know why you husband is behaving like this but it must be demoralising for you.

The racism is causing me to care a bit less about the conflict. I just don’t have the energy to absorb the violence against people of colour at the hands of Ukrainians. It’s just too much to take in.

Thank you @Why2why. I hate the word gaslighting being used but it really feels like it. I keep telling him it is possible to feel terrible for Ukrainians whilst also being disappointed by the response to it but he doesn’t get it. He started saying that I care more about racism than I do Ukrainians, because I have brought racism into it.

I don’t know why you husband is behaving like this but it must be demoralising for you

Because we often argue about racism, and he always finds any excuse he can to claim something is not racist, and it’s people of colour who are obsessed with it. I knew we disagreed on race before we got married, but I never appreciated how much of a denier he is. I struggle with it a lot.

And I understand what you mean. I have family who were directly impacted by previous invasions, and no one ever cared about my family going through it at the time. That’s why I struggle to understand how race isn’t a factor in the outpouring of sympathy and grief.

What does he mean you care more about racism than you do Ukrainians? Does he realise that people of colour lives matter too? Why should you care any less about racism than you do for white Ukrainians?

Donewithracism
Has your husband seen this?

twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1497974245737050120?t=QkhQEkB9fUV8YyMYnqD_fg&s=19

[quote StarbucksSmarterSister]Donewithracism
Has your husband seen this?

twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1497974245737050120?t=QkhQEkB9fUV8YyMYnqD_fg&s=19[/quote]
Not that specific link but most of those videos. His response was only “point taken”.

But otherwise, there is no racial element involved at all.

@Why2why

What does he mean you care more about racism than you do Ukrainians? Does he realise that people of colour lives matter too? Why should you care any less about racism than you do for white Ukrainians?

I care more about arguing something is racist and making everything about racism, than that people are actually dying.

Because a handful of times he brought up a story concerning Ukraine, I responded by comparing the response to Iraq and Afghanistan rather than showing any sympathy to Ukraine, and therefore I make everything about race.

Worth sharing this with your husband

fb.watch/buEFKdhnBU/

And this www.independent.co.uk/world/ukraine-racism-refugees-russia-war-un-b2025771.html?amp

I think no one is faulting the West’s response to Ukraine. This IS how we should treat refugees. With compassion and making border crossing easier. The question is why was this not the case with the Syrians and other refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Most of us studying refugees are not saying THIS response is wrong. We are saying this is how we should respond every time.
And if your answer to that is ‘we can’t take in everybody.’ Then ask yourself why you feel able to take in Ukrainians but not people with black and brown skin. And then sit with that thought.

And don’t say we ‘feel closer to Ukrainian culture.’ The UK is a country that eats curry as a takeaway on a regular basis and there are kebab vans selling falafel everywhere. What parts of Ukrainian culture is the UK close to?
Other than the fact that they share the colour of your skin.
And a reminder that the tip of North Africa is much closer to mainland Europe than Ukraine is to Spain. Geographical proximity isn’t an excuse either.

This IS how we should treat refugees

👍

Part of it may be the stance the press have taken with Ukraine Vs Afghanistan and Syria. In the latter, we were the aggressors, wars started or encouraged by Britain, America and the West. The press couldn't show the bombed out streets and cities reduced to rubble by American bombs. They wouldn't show the suffering caused by British soldiers and operations. In Ukraine, Russia is the aggressor and the press are lapping up the destruction and pulling at people's heart strings. The difference in coverage between Ukraine Vs shock and awe/drone strikes on weddings/collateral damage is stark.

From a slightly different perspective, I've just checked out the countries who are sorry Ukraine with military equipment or with sanctions against Russia. It is clearly a world wide effort, but I was unable to find a single African country which has sent anything to Ukraine or sanctioned Russia.

In this case, proximity (geographical and economic) may be an important part of the response and it may have been an important part of the response to other crisis which were not so heavily supported by the UK.

@Impier

Part of it may be the stance the press have taken with Ukraine Vs Afghanistan and Syria. In the latter, we were the aggressors, wars started or encouraged by Britain, America and the West. The press couldn't show the bombed out streets and cities reduced to rubble by American bombs. They wouldn't show the suffering caused by British soldiers and operations. In Ukraine, Russia is the aggressor and the press are lapping up the destruction and pulling at people's heart strings. The difference in coverage between Ukraine Vs shock and awe/drone strikes on weddings/collateral damage is stark.

You do realize it was Russian planes that "reduced [Syrian cities] to rubble"? Which is precisely why there is such concern now about Kharkiv and Kyiv suffering through what they already did to Aleppo and in their own country, to Grozny.

@GrumpyPanda, I don't think any side came out of Syria smelling of roses.

India has sided with Russia. That doesn’t mean innocent Indian students deserve to die in Ukraine and not be evacuated. That is fairly perverted logic.
I also don’t think we should be boycotting Russians in the same vein. Dissent in Russia is almost a death sentence (and certainly a prison sentence). We should give every opportunity to those Russians who want to leave as well. Many as are as much of a victim of Putin as the Ukrainians.

@Impier

Part of it may be the stance the press have taken with Ukraine Vs Afghanistan and Syria. In the latter, we were the aggressors, wars started or encouraged by Britain, America and the West. The press couldn't show the bombed out streets and cities reduced to rubble by American bombs. They wouldn't show the suffering caused by British soldiers and operations. In Ukraine, Russia is the aggressor and the press are lapping up the destruction and pulling at people's heart strings. The difference in coverage between Ukraine Vs shock and awe/drone strikes on weddings/collateral damage is stark.

exactly this

@MangshorJhol

And don’t say we ‘feel closer to Ukrainian culture.’ The UK is a country that eats curry as a takeaway on a regular basis and there are kebab vans selling falafel everywhere. What parts of Ukrainian culture is the UK close to? Other than the fact that they share the colour of your skin. And a reminder that the tip of North Africa is much closer to mainland Europe than Ukraine is to Spain. Geographical proximity isn’t an excuse either.

this

@MangshorJhol

I think no one is faulting the West’s response to Ukraine. This IS how we should treat refugees. With compassion and making border crossing easier. The question is why was this not the case with the Syrians and other refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of us studying refugees are not saying THIS response is wrong. We are saying this is how we should respond every time. And if your answer to that is ‘we can’t take in everybody.’ Then ask yourself why you feel able to take in Ukrainians but not people with black and brown skin. And then sit with that thought.

This.