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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the UK in danger from Russia?

614 replies

hereforalongtimenotagoodtime · 24/02/2022 21:58

Keep receiving conflicting information. I am sick to my stomach and quite simply hate the unknown. So a simple question - is it likely that the UK will be in danger from Russia? And if so what does that look like? Cyber attacks, bombs being dropped?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 15:10

After all, they'll be fully aware that it's the end for everybody won't they?

Probably. You'd hope. But you just don't know and you don't know how Putin is selling it. If he's saying 'we will Nuke Stockholm because the west are too spineless to retaliate' they might believe the hype. Or simply, if you don't go along with this you are dead anyway. You just don't know and thats kind of the point here.

I also think it depends on whether they think they are dead if Putin goes. He could be filling heads with ideas of revolution, imprisonment etc.

What do they fear most?

I do think that rumours about Putin's health are curious though. They match with his ridiculous table afterall. Obviously it could just be propaganda aimed to damage him. But this might well touch a nerve, afterall he sent some punks to intimidate the last leg hosts after they made a bunch of jokes about him being gay.

The fact we can't predict - and we really can't rule anything out - is Putins strength.

Remember he is currently in a position where he's looking weaker than expected militarily and weak on the propaganda war. He has a desire and need to protect his ego and reputation here by acting tough.

Typical bully.

Im sure that the international defence psychologists are processing it all...

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 15:13

It is so very unlikely to happen that it is not worth wasting energy worrying about it.

I think more to the point, if it happens there's really fuck all you are going to be able to do to protect yourself anyway.

You either die in it or survive and face utter chaos and panic or die in the aftermath.

Not sure I much fancy any of those options tbh.

Jedsnewstar · 27/02/2022 15:16

The party in control of the uk government is almost entirely funded by the Russians, we are not a threat to them, we are in bed with them.

Come on now b b b b b b b b b b but Corbyn.

ClaudineClare · 27/02/2022 15:17

True, Red. But I think some posters are deliberately scaring others with the talk of nuclear war. It is not a nice thing to do.

Yeahthat · 27/02/2022 15:25

@Jedsnewstar

The party in control of the uk government is almost entirely funded by the Russians, we are not a threat to them, we are in bed with them.

Come on now b b b b b b b b b b but Corbyn.

Cut the crap and take your student politics elsewhere.

We acted earlier to supply Ukraine with weapons than just about any other European nation - at a time when Germany wouldn't even let planes carrying them pass through their airspace and did nothing more than offer helmets.

We backed removing Russia from SWIFT before many European nations and were instrumental in building consensus for it.

We continue to supply Ukraine with weapons and financial support.

B b b b but ohhhhh Je-re-my Coor-byn!

Fuck off.

sleaf · 27/02/2022 15:46

I wish I hadn't seen this post. I was anxious enough already and jumpy at loud noises outside, e.g. aircraft going over thinking it could be a nuclear weapon.

Kassle · 27/02/2022 15:46

I was anxious enough already and jumpy at loud noises outside, e.g. aircraft going over thinking it could be a nuclear weapon.

Even if it did happen, it wouldn't be a case of suddenly you hear an aircraft and it's a nuclear weapon.

MarshaBradyo · 27/02/2022 15:46

Yeahbut I agree what a ridiculous post from pp

Kassle · 27/02/2022 15:47

B b b b but ohhhhh Je-re-my Coor-byn!

I think our current government are a disgusting group of utter clowns and charlatans (to put it mildly), but thank F we do not have anti-NATO Corbyn in charge right now.

Kassle · 27/02/2022 15:48

Really hacked off with people using this to score a political point TBH, and I'm about as anti-Tory as they come.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 15:56

@ClaudineClare

True, Red. But I think some posters are deliberately scaring others with the talk of nuclear war. It is not a nice thing to do.
We need to be realistic here.

Its possible. But unlikely.

We need to understand this isn't just about nukes too.

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" said Roosevelt. And I think we should be mindful of that.

The population being fearful undermines our governments' ability to deal with this one. We need to be aware of our fear and control it for good reason. Panic and dissent here damages the unity of non military action.

I don't think avoiding the subject helps us with that because we are still fearful though. It doesn't remove the risk of us utterly panicking at a crucial moment further down the line. We need to understand why it is important to hold nerve in the face of the fear. Like the Ukrainian President if you will.

To do this, we have to contextualise it, explaining why we should simultaneously understand why he might be bluffing and why he might not and we do need to take it seriously too. We can't just ignore it. Same goes for other possible threats.

We know that the British and the Russians had intelligence prior to the invasion that he definitely was going to do it. They really didn't think the invasion was a bluff. That suggests our intelligence isn't bad.

And there are lots of Russians who perhaps have more to lose here than some of us. There is an incentive to do away with Putin for many.

Ranting and raving aren't the same as action. Thats what Trump did. We had an unconscious bias from the bluster that he would win a second term. Didn't happen. They are a sign of inherent weakness not strength.

Its what Putin doesn't want us to see. He doesn't want to be the Emperor exposed with no clothes. He's going to be all to aware of how the facade of Russian strength has been harmed. Even if Ukraine lose quickly now.

Fear is driven by the things we don't know.

So focus on the things we do know: good western unity, Putins inherent weakness being found out, military strength not being quite as big as we might have percieved, Ukrainian resistance holding well considering, good Ukrainian propaganda, his need to look tough, good Russian intelligence, poor logistics, Russians citizen concerns over loved ones, fears about money, putins age, a lack of real love for putin domestically, failing to follow basic SunTzu principles, a lack of clear moral cause, a distrust of the Russian state by the Russian public (the level of vaccine uptake in Russia is directly linked to this - so theres clear evidence of not really believing Putin going on), Russian MPs openly dissenting and saying they feel betrayed.

These aren't being stressed enough and we are doing what he wants when he persuades you to look into a pit of anxiety and despair.

We need to understand rationality versus our own fears. This exploitation by politicians has been rampant for the last 6 years in British politics. We need to start learning to identify it better to stop being manipulated too.

We should be able to read anxiety producing shit on the internet, go away talk about it and in doing so rationalise it. If we don't learn this skill we put ourselves at risk of other harms not just nukes.

sleaf · 27/02/2022 15:56

@Kassle

I was anxious enough already and jumpy at loud noises outside, e.g. aircraft going over thinking it could be a nuclear weapon.

Even if it did happen, it wouldn't be a case of suddenly you hear an aircraft and it's a nuclear weapon.

I know. I heard a distant rumble earlier from the nearby industrial estate and for a moment panicked.
strawberryapricotpie · 27/02/2022 16:08

@Jedsnewstar

The party in control of the uk government is almost entirely funded by the Russians, we are not a threat to them, we are in bed with them.

Come on now b b b b b b b b b b but Corbyn.

This.
StormzyinaTCup · 27/02/2022 16:27

I'm still going with willy waving. He is likely playing the psychological/fear game as he did a couple of days ago. He is playing to a western audience as he knows full well his words will be picked up by our media and splashed all over the front pages (a bit like the media headlines during covid which put the wind up people).

He is running out of any 'friends' he may have had prior, China have abstained on UN Security meeting and some Chinese banks are reportedly restricting some of Russia's financial arrangements for purchasing of raw materials, Hungary have agreed to all EU sanctions and Turkey is now calling Russia's attack an 'act of war'.

For every day this goes on Putin looks more and more like a busted flush.

MrsLargeEmbodied · 27/02/2022 16:37

thank you so much @RedToothBrush

i totally appreciate your time and your comments, as i am sure many others do

GallopingHighRoad · 27/02/2022 16:48

Good post @RedToothBrush

Question everything. Everything.

HelpMeHiveMind · 27/02/2022 17:11

By saying this @RedToothBrush, do you imply it's more likely he'd go for either a non Nato country or one without nuclear capability themselves e.g. he wouldn't attack one of those with nukes because of M.A.D? As you say in a later post, that does depend whether he's selling it as "If I go down, you're dead anyway so you may as well take these guys down with us"? OR if he's gone all ISIS style and believes he's purging the world of the evil of NATO...in which case, surely sacrificing themselves in the process would be a better necessary evil than existing alongside us?

illyawasthebest · 27/02/2022 17:11

@RedToothBrush I've followed your posts in brexit and feminism over the years and wanted to say thank you for being such a regular and wonderful poster here. I always value your input. Thanks

Trainbear · 27/02/2022 17:15

@Valhalla17

If Boris keeps making threats then it's highly likely we will be nuked.
Put. Down. The. Glue.
DrHildegardeLanstrom · 27/02/2022 17:17

I came here looking for sense from @RedToothBrush - thank you!

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 20:46

@HelpMeHiveMind

By saying this *@RedToothBrush*, do you imply it's more likely he'd go for either a non Nato country or one without nuclear capability themselves e.g. he wouldn't attack one of those with nukes because of M.A.D? As you say in a later post, that does depend whether he's selling it as "If I go down, you're dead anyway so you may as well take these guys down with us"? OR if he's gone all ISIS style and believes he's purging the world of the evil of NATO...in which case, surely sacrificing themselves in the process would be a better necessary evil than existing alongside us?
I can see a scenario potentially arising which is probably our worst case one. But it could also be the route to a face saving exercise.

The principle of 'The Nuclear Deterrant' only works if your enemy truly believes you are willing to see your intention to fire back.

The principle of the Nuclear Deterrant originated at a time when only the Americans and the Soviets had nukes and the world was largely divided neatly in two between Pro-American and Pro-Communist groupings. Thats not true now and perhaps is a lot more complex - not least because more countries have nukes.

When the US got the Atomic Bomb, the point was it HAD to be used to illustrate the willingness to use it and the destructive force of it. They had to produce 'The Fear'. Thats the true power of nukes - not how many people they can blow up in a single blast.

We assume that anyone firing a preemptive strike is a madman hell bent on destroying the world. There is now a question hanging over whether Putin could be that madman. I personally don't really buy that.

What if there is another possibility here too though?

I pose the question: Putin believes the West is weak. Does this mean that he thinks, that if he uses a nuke against a third party target, the West will definitely respond?

What is the situation if you have someone who doesn't believe that NATO will have the stomach to actually see it through in third party situation?

What if you ultimately though that you chuck a nuke, to prove how serious you were and thus how powerful you are, gambling that the opposition wouldn't chuck one back?

Lets call it the Gambling Man Scenario rather than the Mad Man Scenario we are used to. I think this is the one we perhaps need to be most wary about, rather than an out and out suicide strike.

He will know that if he launches and fails to pull it off all if lost. But if he does the rewards might be there as you redefine the balance of world power. So might think its worth it if he really does think he could play his cards like this and win.

Putin went into Ukraine on a gamble because he arrogantly thought he could win quickly and with little cost; he over estimated his power. He also underestimated the West's response. A lot of this is down to his bunker mentality and him being out of touch with reality as its been distorted by yes men.

This is a dangerous situation because it may also mean he is willing to take a gamble if he thinks there's a chance NATO will blink. Which doesn't have to be a reality - NATO may absoluetly not hesitate if a third party was nuked - Key point: he just has to believe this is the case.

I do think given this growing rhetoric there may be noises which stress the NATO position to try and disspell this. This will sound REALLY scary to the likes of us. But may be needed to close this third party idea about NATO blinking. It will also resonate back in Russia within the context of Putin's pretext...

Equally that could ultimately go too far, or Putin does decide to go suicidal and frames this as an act of aggressive so he has to go preemptive. But this is the extreme end of the scale of posibilities. There are many more in between. Don't overstate third party concerns.

The whole point of this constructed situation is about brinkmanship and trying to get the other to blink first especially if the ground attacks are still faltering and the economic crisis and public reaction is BAD. I'm guessing a certain amount of damage limitation going on regardless. Putin's philosphy has always been to turn a crisis into an opportunity to take advantage of. It could solidify his position back home, if he plays it right.

If this nuke talk does get ramped up increasingly over the next few days, its really not to be unexpected. Its likely to be something Putin has identified as a potential weakness and inevitability will try to exploit it - because he's not got too many cards in his hands right now, even if he has absoluetely no intension of following it through. Which obviously is going to push anxieties on here and elsewhere in NATO countries though the roof. (Its kind of the point)

And he has to do some serious performance acting to try and save face domestically - and to look like he is indeed 'standing up to NATO aggression'. (Thus a contrived Mexican Stand off might be what he's after - obviously with those sanctions on the table).

I think the tone of things will ramp up over the next few days - and get even scarier and giving everyone brown pants - again I stress I don't think this is a certainity and it still doesn't mean anything is likely to happen. Think Cuban Missile Crisis Type Moment.

Keep this in mind: in so many crisis, there needs to be an exit strategy available whereby a wounded party can exit without too much loss of face. Look out for them.

I would suggest in this context that trapping some of the Oligarchs in London rather than allowing them to travel home to potentially talk Putin down off the ceiling if thats where he's clinging, might not be the greatest idea if I'm honest.

The ultimate point here, is both parties have to be on the same page with nukes no matter what and that both really feel there is really nothing to be gained from going down that route.

Sit tight, hold your breathe and try not to panic. (Easier said than done, I know!)

Ciaram55 · 27/02/2022 21:36

One thing I'm clinging on to is that Putin is well known to like the finer things in life....luxury villas, yachts etc. Is he willing to lose all that, which he surely will if he went nuclear?

HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine · 27/02/2022 22:16

Lets call it the Gambling Man Scenario rather than the Mad Man Scenario we are used to. I think this is the one we perhaps need to be most wary about, rather than an out and out suicide strike.

^^ This.
Putin is a keen chess player.

Wingingthis · 28/02/2022 06:27

BBC have a daily podcast called Ukrainecast (I listen on the apple podcast app) which I find brilliant. They discuss and explain everything that has happened that day

HelpMeHiveMind · 28/02/2022 06:40

@WingingThis are you able to summarise yesterday's Ukrainecast about nukes? I was interested but don't really get on with podcasts, prefer to read.