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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the UK in danger from Russia?

614 replies

hereforalongtimenotagoodtime · 24/02/2022 21:58

Keep receiving conflicting information. I am sick to my stomach and quite simply hate the unknown. So a simple question - is it likely that the UK will be in danger from Russia? And if so what does that look like? Cyber attacks, bombs being dropped?

OP posts:
Whammyyammy · 26/02/2022 22:01

Russia has been dragged back behind the iron curtain regardless, and alienated from the rest of the world for decades, with blood on their hands.

UKRAINEwearewithyou · 26/02/2022 22:03

@Ganymedemoon

What @RedToothBrush says "Numbers of Russian protesters are still relatively small given the size of the population."

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2022 22:03

@Whammyyammy

Russia has been dragged back behind the iron curtain regardless, and alienated from the rest of the world for decades, with blood on their hands.
Disagree.

It depends on what happens with Putin. If he goes it depends on who comes next.

Many will see a new leader as an opportunity and that will encourage engagement for political and financial reasons.

RedToothBrush · 26/02/2022 22:20

Jane Lytvynenko @janelytv
What many people don’t understand is that we Ukrainians are counting every gunshot, every artillery fire, every tank passing by. On Telegram we exchange videos of neighbourhoods. For those of us lucky enough to be safe, we are getting information out. This is a mass mobilization.

Whammyyammy · 26/02/2022 22:21

@redtoothbrush there's no coming back from his troops invading Ukraine and murders innocent civilians.
The whole world currently stands against Russia. I hope sanctions imposed have massive effects for decades

MrsDukeOfHastings · 26/02/2022 22:54

I think this is absolutely heartbreaking to watch happening and I really feel for Ukraine and essentially everyone else is powerless.

The one thing I am concerned about is, if Russia does become completely isolated and condemned by the rest of the world, including China now, will he just think F it and go all out. Will he now just do all it takes to destroy everyone and everything? It's scary times from a very unpredictable and evil man. I think he wants to go down in history and will do whatever it takes to do that.

I don't know much about politics etc but surely if he has broken these laws is he not able to have his presidency stripped?

And if that does happen then I have no doubt that he will just go down in flames and press the button so to speak.

Scianel · 26/02/2022 23:33

I hope sanctions imposed have massive effects for decades

You want innocent Russians, currently children and babies, to suffer the consequences of the actions of one man?

Deliberateplanning · 26/02/2022 23:48

RedToothBrush

You are amazing. I always know when I'm reading something written by you. Thank you x

TokyoSushi · 27/02/2022 06:26

Hey @RedToothBrush I've been waiting to hear your opinion on what's going on. Fascinating insight, thank you.

Olden · 27/02/2022 06:54

Thanks @RedToothBrush

Alexandra2001 · 27/02/2022 07:12

You don't just take whats being said at face value. You match it up with what you are seeing and what actions have been taken. NOTHING today has said Russia is in control of the situation

They may have had a few set backs but they will soon be in control of Ukraine & what we see and hear on the situation is also controlled to some extent - such as We will send 1000s of X weapons, the reality is its extremely difficult to get them to where they are needed now.
With every likelihood they will fall into Russian hands - Trucks heading to the East are an obvious target.

So I do think the risks here are stabilising for the UK. But ramping up for Ukraine

The risks have only just started for all of us, i think its inevitable we will come into direct military conflict with Russia, the Russians are not going to standby as we send weapons to the Ukrainians are they? equally are we prepared to see a humanitarian crisis the likes of what we have never witnessed in Europe unfold before our very eyes?

Also atm the refugee numbers crossing into Poland Czech etc is relatively small, as war progresses, these will become far more, i hope this is being planned for? but so far we here little about it & thats before we get to the people who cannot escape - where is their food going to come from?

I wish to God we had followed Ellwoods demands months ago to put a NATO Rapid reaction force of 40k into Ukraine, despite Putins threats neither he nor his Generals want to fight the USA/NATO but who really thought Putin would throw us back to the 1930s?

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 09:42

Oh I think Russia will eventually take Ukraine. It has to. Otherwise Putin has failed. But take control? More difficult and a different thing.

Theres evidence this morning that Russian are very aware of the impending banking issue from multiple sources. A run on banks creates chaos and a crisis for Russia internally. So things are starting to impact. I think Putin's gamble was that the West wouldn't unite and were too chicken shit to take significant steps together. Not sure thats working, though how long it can be maintained is another matter. Taking over Ukraine or committing crimes against citizens will probably help to unify though. Precisely to avoid a military front.

What can Putin do with the anger that arises from it? He has to channel it to his advantage and I think thats going to be a real challenge.

I don't rule out scenes like Bosnia by any stretch of the imagination. But I also remain unconvinced that it will connect with Russians either if it happens. Particularly young Russians who don't look back at the USSR with rose tinted nostalgia.

We know that even when you 'shut down' foreign social media, it doesn't mean that people aren't accessing it. There is a risk involved in doing so, but it doesn't stop it.

Ultimately people want a future. One that inspires them and offers opportunities. The current situation contrasts with previous conflicts. There is no real 'moral cause' here even with Putin trying to fake one and there's also no tangible goal for a better future either. You can't say that you are getting more lands for you country for example, because why does Russia need it? You can stir up nationalism and anti western feelings but many will still resent losing what they've recently had and now dont.

Ukrainians speak Russian and are Orthodox Christians. Its harder to have a point of difference. Putin isn't at a point where he is at the height of domestic adulation. He's feared, but feared enough? Yes there is Russian racism and superiority over Ukrainians but being asked to suffer and fight rather than make a deal for peace?

I do note that the Ukrainian president has said they are ready for talks but not in Belarus this morning. And made appeals to Belarus to be Belarusian not Russian.

Thing is Putin has a simple problem with a population without money. They will get angry. He will be able to direct so of that at Ukrainians. But Ukraine is far away and government officials are nearby. Putin isn't universally loved. He will have to dedicate resources to managing growing anger at home.

And like us, Russians priorities are 'how do i pay my bills, how do i keep a roof over my head, how do i keep my children feed?' The oligarchs aren't going to get paid and accessing their cash will be a pain in the arse. Not undoable but difficult. Putin is going to be perhaps expecting the oligarchs to put up and shut up with that. Is that in the oligarchs interests? No nice sunny holidays, their yachts impounded? The oligarchs aren't interested in empty Russian nationalism. Most of them spent a great deal of time outside Russia for a reason. And the Oligarchs really aren't subject to the control of Russian propaganda.

I don't know that there's really an appetite for war within Russia. Putin can argue that its about protecting a way of life and try and make it into a war of independence for Russia. But that is different from his initial false flag agenda about Nazis. It puts him on the backfoot and starting from a weak position. Unlike other dictators, Putin isn't in complete control. He still has a facade of parliament and he still has others he has to rely on and trust for support to maintain his power.

Ambitious men, who may see their own opportunities here.

Putin could try military level cyber attacks but it merely opens another front. And that gives the green light for response. Likewise for military attacks. The public won't see the benefit in a military advance. He could throw a nuke, but that doesn't really benefit his domestic situation and his power if someone throws one back.

If he goes and decides he has nothing to lose, he is also risking taking all his oligarchs and generals etc with him. I remain unconvinced that he can stir up that level of fervor within his own ranks. A few years ago maybe but now? The whole war pretext was because of a growing feeling of Putins personal weakness and was supposed to counter this. I do believe they will see this as a personal miscalculation by Putin rather than a Russian one, and Russia has alternatives.

I do think thats why we will see much talk of these. And actually thats why Oligarchs won't be completely cut off. Handicapped enough but close enough still.

Key point: If you make appeals to the lowest common denominator in patronism, you tend to appeal to those who are least educated and least aware of the world - the masses. But this doesn't work if you also don't have the support of your elites. What does nationalism offer the Russian elite if Russia is isolated?

The framing here is going to be worth watching. The West and Ukraine will make a point of it being Putin's War not Russia's war. For a reason.

The media and individuals here would be wise to take note.

Even if Russia does still take Ukraine quickly, Putin has created a load of crisis for himself. They may well be exploitable, they may not.

Others may have more interest in finding a better exit strategy. Mindful that the US got bogged down in Afghanistan with no exit strategy for years and it still didn't end well, still fresh in minds. And the same went before for the Soviets.

Bottomline: Do Russians really want a war themselves that much? Pride is the thing that will keep them in one. Other alternatives and opportunities will be the thing that gives them an exit strategy.

Oblomov22 · 27/02/2022 09:47

I'm not that worried. Should we be?

StormzyinaTCup · 27/02/2022 09:52

In my opinion putting NATO in right now is not the answer and more than likely playing straight into Putins hands, it's what he wants. He wants an all out War and that would be reason enough for him, this is not just about taking Ukraine.

The risks have only just started for all of us, i think its inevitable we will come into direct military conflict with Russia, the Russians are not going to standby as we send weapons to the Ukrainians are they?

I think you mean Putin is not going to standby, the 'Russians' are not all for this action and they too are going to pay a huge price for this. Putin is acting for and on behalf of himself.

Putin is hiding out in his bunker in the Urals and doing exactly what Hitler did whilst claiming he wants to rid Ukraine of neo-Nazism - he is as mad and bad as Hitler and it really needs someone in his circle to take him down imminently. That isn't something NATO will be able to achieve.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 09:56

I know there has been a mocking of throwing Russia out of Eurovision and sporting events.

But youve also had Russian Tennis Stars writing no war on cameras.

Sport and culture are pride and patronism things. They are important (again look at historical precedence here and how its used to further a country).

Yes in the scheme of things they look petty, but this is also about optics and globalisation issues.

Russians who leave to participate are well loved and respected. They embody patriotic representation. They also aren't under the control of Russian state media.

There is a whole cohort of outward looking Russians. Russian who go on holiday all over Europe.

Putin faces having to purge them in someway. Without upsetting the public in the process.

Kick the Russians out of the football. You still have football fans. You ban the World Cup or the Champions League from TV, you have pissed off football fans.

Global media and global travel changes the dynamics of this conflict compared to the past. Putin has been trying to separate Russia for a while, but also wants power and prestige in the world. Schrodinger's paradox.

Putin could turn this into an opportunity where he does increase his grip on power. But he's got a lot of internal battles to get there too.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 10:14

Re comparison between Hitler and Putin.

We are not looking at Hitler in 1939/40 at the height of his powers. On the streets mingling with the celebrating crowds.

There isn't a sense of pride or adulation in Moscow. There's not a sense of opportunity and a glorious future. Its one of 'shit can i get money out the bank tomorrow'. Putin isn't visible to the people. In recent public appearances he has had been auditioning for humorous ikea adverts. He has had long rambling speeches which few citizens will have the patience to sit though. Theres no three word slogans going on. Theres little in the way of positive propaganda at home.

Its more reminiscent of later Hitler. Hitler who ordered attacks despite the reality of intelligence and because general were too scared to tell him that the wisdom of them was questionable.

And its got much more modern and relevant comparisons with American military quagmires.

I know where the Hitler comparisons seem applicable, but I think they are a bit lazy tbh too. I think I see more comparisons with Serbia in the 1990s tbh. Noting here that NATO did bomb Belgrade and other parts of the country and that had the opposite effect on public support and perhaps helps unify and create antiwest sentiment. The campaign did work there, but I do not think can be scaled up. The only relevant lesson from it, is that you probably undermine your PR campaign.

StormzyinaTCup · 27/02/2022 11:44

Its more reminiscent of later Hitler. Hitler who ordered attacks despite the reality of intelligence and because general were too scared to tell him that the wisdom of them was questionable.

Yes it is, I don't think it's lazy to make a comparison here with Hitler though. Hitler continued to take action despite the intelligence and evidence showing otherwise however it didn't deter him.

Putin is taking aggressive action and will likely continue despite intelligence and evidence showing otherwise, there will be a multitude of sanctions against him and his citizens and the country will be effectively ostracised however it didn't/won't deter him (I don't believe but who knows).

How different would things have been if one of Hitler's men had been successful in assassinating him which is really what needs to happen here.

What is more of an immediate concern is what lengths Putin will go to save face. The country is a superpower and currently his army are being given a run for their money by, amongst others, untrained civilians with homemade Molotov cocktails and the world is watching. He must be raging.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 12:36

@StormzyinaTCup

Its more reminiscent of later Hitler. Hitler who ordered attacks despite the reality of intelligence and because general were too scared to tell him that the wisdom of them was questionable.

Yes it is, I don't think it's lazy to make a comparison here with Hitler though. Hitler continued to take action despite the intelligence and evidence showing otherwise however it didn't deter him.

Putin is taking aggressive action and will likely continue despite intelligence and evidence showing otherwise, there will be a multitude of sanctions against him and his citizens and the country will be effectively ostracised however it didn't/won't deter him (I don't believe but who knows).

How different would things have been if one of Hitler's men had been successful in assassinating him which is really what needs to happen here.

What is more of an immediate concern is what lengths Putin will go to save face. The country is a superpower and currently his army are being given a run for their money by, amongst others, untrained civilians with homemade Molotov cocktails and the world is watching. He must be raging.

What is more of an immediate concern is what lengths Putin will go to save face. The country is a superpower and currently his army are being given a run for their money by, amongst others, untrained civilians with homemade Molotov cocktails and the world is watching. He must be raging.

Just how isolated is he now?

It matters.

This is a man who doesn't do smart phones or social media.

But young Russians do. And Russian trying to find news of a new where loved ones are fighting, they've heard nothing for weeks and there's rumours circulating are more likely to go looking in places that are apparently off limits.

We can see the molotov cocktails, Russians may go looking for news and come across them but can Putin see them?

There are four audiences here: the international community, the Ukrainian community, the Russian community and Putin's leadership community. All are different.

Every new war has been more caught up in the optics of war than the last.

Theres only really China and North Korea who you can reasonably argue are doing a good job at avoiding other eyes in/out.

Will Putin get ousted? Possible but probably not. But he also is now hamstrung in domestic issues which make it harder for him to eye up anything further. Will Ukrainian survive this? Thats another question. Putin is 69. Even if he stays alive and keeps power for another decade or so, I think it hard to see Ukraine staying under Russian control. Any 'legacy' that Putin has may be somewhat short lived anyway. Its a big country to occupy long term when you've not won hearts and minds and theres still lots of unexploded cluster bombs lying around.

StormzyinaTCup · 27/02/2022 12:57

Will Putin get ousted? Possible but probably not. But he also is now hamstrung in domestic issues which make it harder for him to eye up anything further. Will Ukrainian survive this? Thats another question. Putin is 69. Even if he stays alive and keeps power for another decade or so, I think it hard to see Ukraine staying under Russian control. Any 'legacy' that Putin has may be somewhat short lived anyway. Its a big country to occupy long term when you've not won hearts and minds and theres still lots of unexploded cluster bombs lying around.

Yes, I think the bigger picture is this. After the immediate actions we are seeing now it will change Russia and not in the way Putin envisages.

The younger generations in Russia are not of the ‘old skool’ of thinking. They have access via SM to a world outside of their own country, they travel globally. They are going to be affected by these sanctions and support for Putin in his own country will (I hope) be at an all time low. That said there are not that many options available for removing him and his cronies.

Theres only really China and North Korea who you can reasonably argue are doing a good job at avoiding other eyes in/out.

Quite coincidentally and without derailing, whilst all eyes are on Russia/Ukraine North Korea have launched an as yet identified missile towards the Sea of Japan.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2022 12:59

Totally coincedental.

Isitsixoclockalready · 27/02/2022 13:02

@hereforalongtimenotagoodtime

Keep receiving conflicting information. I am sick to my stomach and quite simply hate the unknown. So a simple question - is it likely that the UK will be in danger from Russia? And if so what does that look like? Cyber attacks, bombs being dropped?
We've already experienced attack in the past: Salisbury being one example.
LeahLana · 27/02/2022 13:28

@Baystard

In fairness if he even had a plan to disrupt the internet that would be pretty significant, we're so reliant nowadays, not just to use Mumsnet but for all sorts of infrastructure.
Well, as long as mumsnet is ok eh?? 🤯
HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine · 27/02/2022 13:53

f7td5.app.goo.gl/fpCYC9

HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine · 27/02/2022 13:54

Escalation? Or proof it's not going his way?

MrsLargeEmbodied · 27/02/2022 13:55

putin has put his nuclear deterrent on high alert

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