to want to study some more?

[Swedes2Turnips1]

I am a Bachelor of Laws and have a postgraduate journalism qualificaton. I also have 4 (very lovely) children: 5 months, 2 years, one just joined senior school and one about to sit GCSEs. I really fancy studying philosophy. Would it be terribly selfish?

swedes, does it HAVE to be degree level? Does your local uni, or even the OU for that matter offer "courselets" that allow you to study the subject for interest, possibly leading to a diploma, but wont be so time demanding?

Inthegutter - I don't really get your point. Are you saying that in every family both parents should divide work and childcare equally because if not the children don't get a balanced view of male & female roles? ie both parents work and both parents do childcare - or am I being thick?

lucyellensmum - I think if left to my own devices I would veer too much towards the parts of the course that interest me and leave out parts that don't. I think there is a lot to be gained from going to slightly uncomfortable places with learning since we tend to lean towards things that we are already familiar with/proficient at.

nimnom - I'm not saying what families SHOULD do because of course it's up to each family to negotiate, and over the years, re-negotiate their roles so that everyone in the family, both parents and all the children, get a good deal. And for myself, and certainly for many of my contemporaries, this means both parents taking a more active role in both doing hands on parenting and achieving economic well being by working. Whereas 30/40 years ago, when I was growing up, roles were far more polarised - eg even though my parents were both educated to degree level, my dad was the breadwinner and my mum stayed at home and then later when I and my siblings were at school, took a series of very boring jobs for a bit of extra money because she believed it was her duty to fit around school hours. I don't believe this was emotionally healthy (for her or for us children). But then my mother was of a generation where usually men were educated to a higher level and expected to earn, and women were only just begining to get a voice in the workplace. Thankfully things have moved on from then. Of course, in every family there may be phases where one parent takes more responsibility at home or work than the other (eg I taught part time for a while while dp was full time) but overall we aim to achieve a healthy balance. And Anna, I don't agree than the father having a high flying career involving international travel automatically means the mother needs to stay at home. As has been pointed out countless times, good quality consistent childcare can be a perfectly good alternative.

lucyellensmum - Big LOL @ courselet.

A friend of ours used to call his wife 'wifelet' - It used to make me wince. I am wondering now if she had a joblet and took the odd courselet.

Swedes - you think there is a lot of schadenfreude on this thread.

Where exactly?

i would be grateful if someone could explain "schadenfreude " to me

I'll say this again because I have a feeling it wasn't heard. Studying may well take you closer to god - certainly I believe that learning does - whether you get learning from studying is another question of course - but A DEGREE HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH REAL LEARNING IMO.

My first degree was in English. As someone who was passionately interested in literature, I found it a complete and utter waste of time and energy. Yes I had to read lots of texts that I didn't want to read, but I don't think that made me a better scholar. It just made me hugely intolerant of 18th century novels.

Hobby degrees are fine of course. I have a hobby that feels very necessary to me too. But if I were to give up the day job to pursue my hobby, then I would be reliant on DH to support us all. If he wanted to do that, then that would be fine but he would feel a bit vulnerable doing that.

The situations I have observed involve women (I am partly afraid/partly ashamed to say) insisting on their right to pursue hobby degrees in subjects in which they have previously exhibited no genuine academic interest. It frustrates both husbands immensely and neither think they are getting a fair deal.

So I think Swedes, if your DH is really cool about supporting you, or you yourself have sufficient means, and it's something you genuinely want to do (as in you have a genuine academic interest in the subject) then go for it.

Quattro - Schadenfreude was aimed specifically at Anna.
"...a PhD about an obscure historical figure, for example. For someone who has no intention of working? And that PhD takes up a lot of time when the student also has small children? Not sure that I wouldn't qualify that as a "hobby" and not be especially supportive of the student."

Being pedantic about ironing your sheets and duvets takes a long time, caring for a second child takes a long time, caring for an elderly relative takes a long time - there are a whole host of other things in life that take a long time but it seems that something that takes a long time and might be enjoyable for the woman get some people hot under the collar.

In the gutter- thanks I understand, although I don't necessarily agree with all of it.

Quattro - your point about degrees having nothing to do with real learning really depends on the degree. I can totally see what you are saying about your experience, but I am studying for a maths degree and I have learnt loads and I'm really enjoying it. It is the only way that I can develop my knowledge substantially because it is not the sort of subject you can learn through reading.

Inthegutter - what a lot of very good sense there is in everything you write!

Swedes - I don't understand your point about schadenfreude - FWIW can't see any evidence of it myself

Quattro - thanks. I am probably being oversensitive.

Swedes2Turnips1 congratulations on your academic achievementsif further study makes you happy/fulfilled/stimulated^ then yep do it. good* luck

My DH has an MFA and was lecturer. 5 years ago he decided he wanted to change. He now works with children who have major problems, it is very hard, and stressful and he had to completely retrain for it. He is now submitting for a second masters relating to his new job. Though his income will eventually probably be higher than his old career path, we have had to struggle as he works his way up again. He feels very fulfilled in this new career.
We have always supported each other in this way- we have been together for 18 years. Now we have children, and DH is supporting my long held desire to be a SAHM, for at least these first few years. It is all part of being in a partnership. I hope our family continues to be a unit in which all members can find the support to fulfill their potential.

inthegutter - I never said that if the father has a very demanding job that means the mother ought automatically to stay at home.

But I do believe, very firmly, that it is exceedingly bad for children not to see either parent from Sunday evening until Friday evening (or Saturday morning), week in, week out. Obviously that doesn't bother you.

As inthegutter says most of us prefer when we're in relationships to try to have some balance and equity in terms of childcare, domestic stuff and work and leisure time. Even with my parents my mother worked for 13 years as a teacher and paid for my father to get through medical school etc and then he did all the night feeds (she stopped breastfeeding after me) in the 1960s etc. It's not just in 2008 that men and women share domestic stuff. He hoovered every Saturday. He was a consultant/doctor. In 2008 most couples still try to share things like that mostly because most women aren't very content with just cleaning and childcare and most men are not too happy when children are at school for the wife to put her feet up or study air fairy stuff and not contribute to the family when he has 100% of the support of the children to end of university to look forward to.

"Do we really owe our children to earn as much as possible? I think not."
This is a key issue. Each family will decide are they better on state benefits with two stay at home parents giving all 4 children 24/7 attention or send one parent out to work (or for most of us two parents out to work).

If one is at home once there is a bit of time beyond toddler stage and perhaps when they're at full time school should the one at home pray, clean the house, just do child things, just do self maintenance things so she looks like Miss World for her husband when he gets home each night for their 2 hour sex sessions, studies, pursues obscure hobbies or charitable work? Or is that unfair on the man who has to slog it out at work?

ON the questions at the start - do we owe it to our children to earn as much as possible - possibly. My work has in a sense revolutionised these children's lives from what it would have been with 5 of them at state schools on a teacher's salary and me a housewife. No question they have hugely benefited by what I earn in terms of private schools, no university debt, nice holidays, and also time to talk to parents because money and outsourcing cleaning etc buys you time but perhaps best of all is the example of women working and enjoying it, the example to daughters - that mother doesn't mean slave and servant but successful professional.

Anna8888 - a quote from one of your posts:
'I have lots of SAHM friends whose husbands have very demanding jobs with lots of international travel and if the mothers didn't stay at home, the children would have a highly disjointed life.'- that sounds pretty much to me as if you're saying that the children would be disadvantaged if the mother doesnt stay at home!!
Also - you claim it 'obviously' wouldn't bother me if my children didn't see their parents from Sunday evening to Friday evening/Sat morning. Bollocks. It would bother me like mad. Which is one of the reasons dp and I are both in teaching, because we believe it is a career which is worthwhile, intellectually stimulating and provides us BOTH with the chance to enjoy our children on a daily basis.
Try reading the posts rather than making absurd comments.

inthegutter - [eye roll emoticon]

Have you never met anyone in your whole life who had a job that required them to be away from home all week?

I certainly don't think we owe it to our children to earn as much as possible.

Money, like absolutely everything in life, has decreasing marginal returns. And money and the things it can buy are not the only things it is vitally necessary that our children receive from us.

Bringing up children is a joint responsibility that requires money (and that usually means time away from family at work) and care and attention. Fortunately most children have two parents who understand this and share the responsibility between them - that can mean each parent away for part of the week working or, for some lucky children, just one if one parent is a high earner.

Wrt money - we have a duty to provide a level of basic care, and to get the money required to do that. That's the meat and potatoes - but the gravy is optional. Xenia - I don't doubt that you have provided many benefits to your children by earning enough money. But that's your choice - it's not owed as a matter of course.

I would like to pay for my dd's college education and I hope that we will save that from my earnings when they finally materialise. But we might not be able to - and that's just too bad. I'm not going to make myself miserable in some torturous job in order to do that. I do think I should bring in an income - but I don't feel obligated to maximise it at the expense of my happiness and fulfilment. I don't think dh is so obligated either.

Xenia - I dont' think you are miserable doing what you do - but what if you were? I don't want that life - for me - or as a role model for dd.

'Have you never met anyone in your whole life who had a job that required them to be away from home all week? ' - yes Anna8888, I have. In each case it happened to be the father. The mother did NOT feel she HAD to be at home all week. She worked too. For myself and dp, this was not an option we considered, as neither of us would want to be away from our children or home for entire weeks at a time.
Hope that clarifies things. Not sure what your eye rolling emoticon is for?!!