to want to study some more?

[Swedes2Turnips1]

I am a Bachelor of Laws and have a postgraduate journalism qualificaton. I also have 4 (very lovely) children: 5 months, 2 years, one just joined senior school and one about to sit GCSEs. I really fancy studying philosophy. Would it be terribly selfish?

I haven't noticed any distaste for learning for its own sake on this thread - where on earth did you see that?

Who has suggested that learning and broadening one's mind is 'distasteful'? I really don't remember anything to that effect on these posts. I think the main thrust of people's arguments has been 'Yes, learning new things is usually a valuable experience. Just make sure you keep a balance with what the rest of the family want/need if you're thinking of studying for a degree'. Seems fair enough.

inthegutter has expressed my sentiments entirely.

oh and justabout - I have three degrees (as does my sister), one of which I got when I was 31, so I am hardly in a position to find study distasteful.

It's hard to judge where a 'proper' course/job becomes a 'hobby' course/job. All jobs and many courses will require childcare, and courses requre some financing and some jobs pay so little they don't cover childcare or other expenses. My own grant is almost entirely spent on 3 days/week nursery fees. When I finally finish and get a proper job - it will be peanuts compared to what I used to earn and what dh earns. When does my contribution to the family become sufficient not to be a hobby?

But I can't think of what I do as a hobby any more than parenting is a hobby (and I think there are some parents who do see parenting as some sort of hobby).

I could SAHM if I really wanted to - but I REALLY don't want to (don't want to work FT either if I have the choice). So I wonder if I fall into this ragbag of hobbyists (just curious - everyone's entitled to their opinion after all).

In a real sense - I am escaping from my responsibilities as a parent - some of the time. But as a pp has said, if you ensure you have good reliable childcare - is that so terrible?

Really, I don't see how any working or studying parent could not be giving up some of their parenting role, hobbyist or not.

Acinonyx - on the childcare issue - if you have good, reliable childcare for the time when you must absent yourself to study and your children are in no way suffering from lack of maternal attention and your childcare budget is not detracting from your overall standard of living - OK. Maybe it's a hobby - but having a hobby per se is fine if you get a lot of satisfaction from it.

Justabout - I have to take issue with this statement.

"Study is great, so is caring for children. They are not better or worse but different activities."

Once you have children, you have responsibilities towards them. Those responsibilities are not optional. Studying, in particular for a non-vocational qualification, is a luxury. Responsibilities to children must take priority.

I'm going to be my own devil's advocate here - partly.

In reality, no-one can ever really know the impact of childcare on a child. You just hope that if things seem OK they really are. This is something we each have to come to terms with as necessary.

But I think my sticking point is really the term 'hobby'. To me, that's like saying being a mum is a hobby. It just doesn't seem remotely appropriate.

Web definition: 'An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.'

Hmm. Does that mean any study or low-paid employment that you actually enjoy becomes a hobby when you become a parent?

Hobby, hobby. Something just doesn't seem right here. What I do just feels so much more serious and necessary than that.

To take Justabout's point again. I agree that responsibilities to children should take priority - but I think we don't all agree on what that actually means. Priority every second of every day - priority overall - priority when key choices have to be made?

I can think of irl mums who would definitely say every second of every day and nothing should every distract you from that as the focus of your activities. Are you of that mind. I am not. Perhaps this is a fundamental difference.

I think it depends exactly what you'll gain from the study personally.

When DD was 3 I started to do an access course in the evenings, it didn't really take much time away from childcare, as either xp or a good friend would have DD but it did interfere with her bedtimes, I sued to get picked up at 9pm, by whoever was looking after her, so she would be up later than normal, she would spend the evening at a friends (normally as XP was an arse and refused to look after her mostly). Then I'd spend an awful lot of time doing coursework etc. I got pg with DS whilst doing this course, and he would go to the same person doing the childcare for the first 5 months of his life (once I was able to express).

I started this in theory because it would enable me to go to uni without having any former qualifications, I didn't end up going to uni as it often does, life got in the way, so in that respect it ahsn't made any positive impact on my DC's.

However, it made a huge positive affect on ym mental attitude, I though a great deal more of myself, it expanded my thoguhts and dreams and aspirations, I really believe it was at that point in my life I finally became 'me' iyswim.

Is that enough of a reason for me to have left my children in someone elses care keeping them awake past their bedtimes twice a week for two years?

Pity it didn't improve my typing

Acinonyx - I don't know what you do so obviously can't pass judgement on its importance.

I don't think bringing up one's children is a hobby at all - I think it is a major responsibility, albeit one with huge pleasures attached.

I don't think that study that involves real self-improvement with a real application at the end (and that application could be being a better mother or partner, or it could involve paid / unpaid employment) is a hobby.

However, a PhD about an obscure historical figure, for example? For someone who has no intention of working? And that PhD takes up a lot of time when the student also has small children? Not sure that I wouldn't qualify that as a "hobby" and not be especially supportive of the student.

Anna - Although your most recent educational experience was at age 31, you didn't have any children then nor a dp/dh with whom to share finances.

Priority is just that. It doesn't mean you spend 100% of your time on it - it just means that you need to consider it all the time.

I think that the conflict between paid employment and care of children is a very real one since both tend to be very high priorities.

The conflict between recreational study and care of children seems to me to be less of a conflict and easier to resolve because, IMO, children just ought to come first to a hobby.

That doesn't mean I don't think a mother shouldn't spend 15-20 hours a week on a hobby for herself if she wants and can afford it. But 40 or 50 hours, like a job? I would have a problem with that.

Swedes - you are making a non-point. The point was whether or not posters were finding study distasteful - it had nothing to do with partners and children (and yes, I did have a partner at that point - though I don't know what that has to do with anything).

I wanted to study Philosophy from age about 17. I took the sensible, lucrative, career orientated route by choosing to study Law instead. I don't regret that decision, I enjoyed law immensely and it has helped put me in the position where I can now afford to study philosophy without any clear idea of where that might lead - if anywhere.

There's a lot of schadenfreude on this thread. I was really looking for insight into how it might impact on my family life.

Anna - not a non point since it seems that study to you is distasteful if it is financially not necessary. Did your partner at the time fund your hobby study at age 31?

Don't think there's much Schadenfreude at all - you are getting a lot of pretty well-thought out opinions about what you should consider when taking your decision.

But, as usual on MN, you will get lots of opinions when you are considering doing something else (work or recreation) when you have small children.

Anna, what about if that 40-50 hours was for a low paid job??

DP and I have talked tons about extra education lately, he already ash a degree but not in what he wants to do, so he is going back to uni in sept to do another degree, he will only need to go for two seminars a week and the rest can be done from home/online, to do this, he is going to have to change his working hours and maybe start to work at the weekend so as to fulfil his normal hours.

I however would love to become a nurse or midwife, not particularly highly paid jobs, and take a lot of time. My other option is to become a teacher, something else I would love to do, but not as much as the other two options. Being a teacher has pro's regarding childcare, is going to pay me around the same amount, can do my degree from home for the next few years and then do a one year teaching course etc. Midwofery/nursing I would have to put an awful lot of time into away from the DC's.

Would you say that I should do teaching rather than the other options because it was better for my children??

IMO, no matter which I choose to do, my children will be perfectly happy, they will always be well-looked after, they know how much I love them and will just be used to whichever job I end up doing as being 'mums job'.

I think it would probably benefit them more to see me working my butt off to do a job I really wanted to than them to see me working hard to do a job I chose as second best.

Swedes - gosh, you are aggressive.

At 31 it certainly wasn't hobby study - it was an MBA at Insead which led to a much more lucrative subsequent career. And it was fully funded by my former employer and my own savings (and my parents lent me a car).

I see your point Anna, and (phew!) I am definitely in the former rather than the latter camp. (Now why on earth do I care whether you, who might be an 80 yr old male ax murderer for all I know think what I'm doing is a hobby. Whole other thesis in that.....)

I don't personally 'get' that kind of study but I'm prepared to accept that it might mean as much to that person as my work does to me. If it does (and probably soemtimes it does and sometimes it's a lot more casual - where I am, though, there really are no casual, easy-going PhDs no matter how obscure the topic). But does that make a difference to the children - to the family? Hmmm. does the child at nursery settle in better because their mother is really driven to do whatever she is doing?

I wonder if it is really possible to judge the hobbyist as irresponsible without having to logically extend the sweeping brush to every other parent who studies or works when they don't really have to - or does more hours (very common) than they might have to.

VS - I think the equation is always a very difficult one.

However, I feel pretty strongly that as parents we have a joint responsibility to both earn a decent living and spend a decent amount of time with our children bringing them up ourselves. We usually have to work within our existing skillset to find that balance, though of course retraining is an option in some nice countries, like the UK.

Personally, I would feel hugely guilty going out to work full-time when my child is little because my partner earns more than enough to support us all (I include his two sons) and give us a great standard of living. How selfish would I be to subcontract the whole of every day to a third party? But I don't feel guilty working part-time and term-time only at all now that my child is in school as it does not detract from our quality of life as a family.

Interesting discussion - this is an issue I have striggled with myself as I do, frankly, find this PhD (which is easily like a job wrt hours) hard to juggle with family life.

I didn't actually plan it like this - I didn't know I was going to have dd although she was not an accident at all (insert whole other story). To wait 8 years for a child and then be juggling my time and energy like this does create an ethical dilemma for me.

For a while I was unsure that I should continue - but now, I realise I am totally not cut out to SAHM. Of course I would if I had to. But it would not be pretty.

Would dd be better off with a mu who could SAHM happily? Quite possibly - but she didn't get one like that.

I know a mom (good friend actually) irl who would say that if that is the case, one (a she-type one probably) shouldn't have children.

but myself, I think family life involves a lot of compromise - but not the total sacrifice of the self.

Should really by working right now - in fact - instead of theorising about working....