to want to study some more?

[Swedes2Turnips1]

I am a Bachelor of Laws and have a postgraduate journalism qualificaton. I also have 4 (very lovely) children: 5 months, 2 years, one just joined senior school and one about to sit GCSEs. I really fancy studying philosophy. Would it be terribly selfish?

justabout - not self-evident at all, especially in the light of that particular post.

But I am sure your priorities in life are wildly different to my own and that we will never agree about what life is about.

Anna - Most people take it for granted that being a mother is worthwhile. It is ridiculous to think that people have to keep going on about it. I find people who go on about how 'rewarding' and 'meaningful' their role of a mother is a bit like those Americans who repeatedly state your name. It's as though they are nervous of forgetting it if they don't keep reiterating.

justabout - I used to know a lot of people who worked at Hôpital Marmottan in Dr Olivenstein's team. I can assure you that they were the most self-absorbed bunch of save-the-worlders looking for external validation that I have ever come across.

Very irritating, and all the while their family lives fell apart. But they got such a kick from being in the drug addiction clinic in France that they couldn't see their own world fall to pieces.

Of course, I by no means think that all people who do that kind of work are like that.

But don't ROFL at the idea.

Anna - You are very dismissive of huge tranches of society. It sounds like you might have issues with 'belonging'.

To me study is a means of expanding on what is known - to increase knowledge and understanding, both personally, and collectively.

Carry on.

Depends what works in your family and your relationship. It seems inherently unfair if one person is slogging his guts out whilst the other does whatever takes their fancy without being able to say and that qualification will make me a salary of £100k a year but I've known of wives accepting of City bankers becoming vicars so obviously some people can live with these things and for some men it's presumbaly good for the ego that the wife just does voluntary work, pointless oU stuff and childcare whilst they go out to earn proper money and therefore in a sense the wife not being successful can be the key to those relationships working with those types of men.

A fairer way is to allow both halves of the couple to have 3 or 4 years out doing what they choose.

Swedes - who am I dismissing? Not aware that I am at all.

I think you have huge middle-class hang-ups

Anna - " I used to know a lot of people who worked at Hôpital Marmottan in Dr Olivenstein's team. I can assure you that they were the most self-absorbed bunch of save-the-worlders looking for external validation that I have ever come across." And you are dismissing anyone with a joblet - although I have yet to pin you down with a definition of a joblet.

Lots of academics I know do not actually earn very much but thank goodness for us that people are prepared to not make that matter too much.

Swedes - you are not following the thread at all . Please re-read it.

Maybe going back to University would be a good idea for you...

If dh decided he felt a strong need to swap his reasonably well-paid job for some atheist's equivilent of being a vicar I would be startled, anxious, probably not thrilled - but if he was unhappy and it would make him happy and we could make ends meet I would support him.

Can't see the point of extra money above the basics if you are unhappy in your job. That would never work for me.

(Non-Prays fervently that this will never happen!)

Anna - It's as though anyone doing anything charitable is doing it for less than charitable reasons. And anyone not earning big money or with an enviable and identifiable career has a joblet. It is all pretty vulgar. Is that middle class and hung up enough for you?

Xenia - I don't know how practical it is for each half of a couple to have 3/4 years 'out' to do what they choose. The reality for most couples is work, pretty much for most of their adult life! However I DO agree with your principle that it's about balance. I think the most emotionally healthy relationships are ones where both partners take their fair share of all the pleasures and pressures of earning a living and being a parent. I also totally agree that in a small minority of relationships, it probably does suit the man to be a high earner and to have a wife who goes to the gym, does the school run and maybe a bit of a pointless joblet. There are some people who are so inadequate that they need this scenario to provide their self esteem. Which is very unfair on the children IMO as it hardly provides a good male or female role model for them.

Xenia - yes, I think that sabbaticals or time out to pursue hobbies is an excellent idea. But realistically it is unlikely to be "fair" during those years when children are very little. It's more likely to happen without causing too much of a burden on the other partner either before children, or once they have flown the nest.

Do we really owe our children to earn as much as possible? I think not.

Swedes - why do you persist on only partially reading posts? If you are as careless as that at reading, philosophy might be hard going...

inthegutter - I think that's unfair. I have lots of SAHM friends whose husbands have very demanding jobs with lots of international travel and if the mothers didn't stay at home, the children would have a highly disjointed life.

In fact, bourgeois parental neglect is a big, well-documented problem in some schools here in Paris and Neuilly where both parents have very demanding jobs - schools have major issues with poker, drugs, alcohol, underage sex etc.

Do you think studying philosophy would qualify me for bourgeois parental neglect - or would I have to study Phil. at the Sorbonne?
If I had 5 children would I be guilty of Catholic parental neglect?

I think you can be a SAHM and be a neglectful parent and you can a partner in a magic circle law firm and be a neglectful parent. Neglectful parents come in many forms.

I think i probably have a joblet.

I do freelance illustration but it doesn't currently earn much - sometimes it does, but often it doesn't. But actually I'm a far better mother for having my joblet than I would be without it. If I can totally be absorbed in something, and spend some time selfishly doing what I enjoy, and getting better at it and learning from doing it, - then I'm far far more energised and focused and happy and my children benefit enormously from that. My dp is the main earner - and financially we're not great, but my children are small and this is the way that is working, i feel hugely lucky that i'm getting some time to do this - absolutely no guilt involved because I'd feel regret if I didn't give it a try. And soon, when dd2 starts school, I know i'll have to find a job and earn proper money, so this is really the time to do things like this.

I have just received an email from an old colleague who has 2 children, works but does not need the money:
"Yes, shame about the score bit. I have not Googled myself for well over ayear but Martin was telling me that he was so bored that he tried to see how long he could hold his breath. I asked him how long he managed and he said "30 secs, but then got bored with that"! I then told him I am so bored I am going to Google myself and.....Lo!" Is this suggestive of a joblet?

guys guys, this doesnt have to be so personal does it???

Swedes, after reading some (not all) of your posts, i think you should go for it. It really doesnt matter whether you are doing philosophy or cake decorating, you are doing it for you. Shock horror, that someone should do something purely for themselves!! You have made it clear that you are in a good position to do this so why not.

It does become very different if a woman choses to do a course of "pointless" study if as a couple they are struggling financially. But then does the same count for me as we struggle financially to accomodate me being a SAHM?

Boco - Your joblet sounds lovely.

My x colleague earns over £150,000 a year but she dreams about going to art school.