to want to study some more?

[Swedes2Turnips1]

I am a Bachelor of Laws and have a postgraduate journalism qualificaton. I also have 4 (very lovely) children: 5 months, 2 years, one just joined senior school and one about to sit GCSEs. I really fancy studying philosophy. Would it be terribly selfish?

Newname perhaps you should have read the thread! It was just daft me going on about mortar boards. The others were just responding. I never thought I'd get the chance to do a degree and (like some other people I know) I am doing it against all odds, and call me naff if you like, but I have an image of my graduation to get me though this (it's not that I don't love the study; it's doing it under the circumstances I'm in) and that image includes a mortar board.

And even though I probably won't get one, I remain apologetic for my mental image!

To the OP - not selfish providing you are fulfilling all your responsibilities to your children and making a valid and equal contribution to your joint life with your partner.

Study is often a good way IMO to do something interesting that is sufficiently flexible timewise to fulfil those other commitments.

*unapologetic!

I only skimmed the thread since I'm at work . I don't think it's naff at all to plan your graduation pic - I did for many years whilst I slogged away at my degree. I just felt a bit disorientated after my last exam (it wasn't appropriate to go down the pub as many do to celebrate end of Finals) and my graduation I really enjoyed more once I'd been over the stage and shaken Lord Rix's hand!

And yes, I have read the other posts about continuing to study and I agree that studying is not a selfish thing to do. I don't think many people appreciate education the 'first time' around (I certainly didn't, which is why my degree cost £££££ more than it should have done if I'd gone at 18).

Of course studying is good, and I hope that I have a genuine commitment to lifelong learning.

The point I was trying to make is that it is simply not necessary to be studying for a degree to engage with subject that you are passionately interested in. In fact, a degree course can get in the way. The goal becomees the bit of paper rather than the subject itself.

My second objection to doing a degree in midlife is about two people of my acquaintance who (much to the irratation of their husbands) basically refuse to work either voluntarily or in a paid capacity.

In casting around for something to do, (a reason not to work?) having outsourced childcare and housewor, they are both pursuing hobby degrees. In the words of one infuriated husband "She'd never read a book on interior design in her life". It happens.

Quattrocento,
can I put your mind at rest on your second point. There are some of us who are doing the degree later on because it fits. I should have done mine straight from school but for one reason or another I didn't (it's a long story!!).
I'm lucky enough to be a SAHM and I'll graduate the year ds2 starts fulltime school at which time I know I'll be itching to get back to work(if not before). I'm also on two village committees and I pay for my studies out of my money( I still do some part-time work for my old job).

Quattrocento - I share your aversion to hobby degrees, and indeed also to hobby jobs - though only if they are an excuse to get out of one's responsibilities to one's family. Sometimes they are necessary for a person's sanity, and that's fine - just as long as they don't take precedence over taking proper care of children etc.

Nimnom, I imagine most of the people posting on this thread went back into education later in life. In my case, it was a decision I reached after realising that I was unhappy in my job and I wanted a change of lifestyle. Going to uni (into Halls) as a mature student was a good a way of achieving that as any other . I'd always wanted to take a degree anyway.

I also think people tend to enjoy it more when they make a conscious decision to study rather than just do it as the next thing to do after yr 13 .

db has started on (another) degree, 45 y old. his 4 dc have all left to uni, he still works 1 day a week, has earned loads of monney before, so basically he is enjoying his semi retired life which includes studying for a degree. I myself haven't got the self disicpline to read without the pressure of an exam at the end.

Newname - totally agree, I really wish I had done this straight from school, but I do think I'm putting in more and getting out more because It's a concious decision and because I'm paying for it!!

Anna8888 - totally agree with the sanity thing. Between October and now I have my "holidays" from studying and apart from Xmas I've been going up the wall. It is hard juggling with childcare etc, but the only thing that really suffers is the ironing!. I look after my children myself, but it will be much easier when ds2 finally starts preschool in June.

Anna - does your thinking wrt 'hobby jobs' apply to both parents? Or does one parent get to have a serious job that can take precedence over childcare while the other one has 'a hobby job' that should be just enough, but no more, to stop her going bonkers and provide a little pin money?

Acinonyx - my aversion to hobby jobs and hobby degrees if they are excuses to get out of responsibilities extends to everyone, non-parents included.

I think you make a good point quattro about the degree getting in the way of the interesting bits, but it is far better to have a directed course of study and structure, else you will give up when it gets complicated and simply move on the the next simple step. Another point is, much of the literature is only available via subscription or university libraries and websites for which you need to be a student to access this information.

Anna - i dont think anyone is using study as an excuse to shirk parental responsibilities. I think the type of person who is motivated enough to study, especially without a career goal, therefore dont HAVE to do it, will be a good parent by nature of their motivated nature. If they chose to use childcare to help with this, providing the childcare is good then what is the problem?? It is just the same as being a working parent, it is that parents responsibility to ensure that their child has the best care available, be that with the parent/childminder/nursery. The thing is, from your posts i am picking up that you think a mothers role is to be solely a parent and housewife. That is a bit depressing, no one who has a "career" job would want to do it 24/7 without a break. It is the same with parenting, if that is your career.

I fully intended on returning to work when DD was born. I chose not to as i feel that the right thing for MY family is that i am DDs principal carer until she starts school. It is just the way it has worked out. So i am pretty much, just a mum, as in that is what i do 100% of the time. I am happy and fulfilled. I will be returning to work when DD starts school, ppossibly teaching which has the added bonus of fitting around the family. So i am not anti SAHM in any way, i just think that many people find the need for further stimulation, just as merchant bankers need to play golf or go rock climbing do knitting, whatever relaxes people. Personally, i just want to collapse and frig around on the comp and watch a bit of telly at the end of the day, but thats me, if i had the energy then a course of structured study would be great, and certainly not interfering with my parental roles.

My DD1 was at school when i did my degree, she is really proud of her mum.

lucy - I was just responding to Quattrocento's point...

sure it just gave me a handle to say what i felt about things, so sorry if you felt post directed solely at you. TBH i think we always argue on the same side of the SAHM debate, both being commited SAHMs - so i wasnt really disagreeing with you iyswim.

FWIW, if these things are used as an excuse to get out of responsibilities, then i totally agree with you

Justabout- and everyone else in support. Thank you. It helps.

Anna - I don't understand your point at all about hobby jobs being used to shirk responsiblity for the children. Any job could be a way of ducking full-time childcare responsiblity - it need not be a hobby job, surely? And to be honest, as long as the children are properly cared for by a nanny or nursery or grandparent or whatever, I don't see that it matters at all. It is up to the family concerned to choose what works best for them.

Actually I wasn't thinking of farming out my children at all. The maximum no. of lecture hours per week is 10.5 - my DP only works 3 days a week and he is flexible as to which days. I suspect we could sort out the childcare between us. Of course, ideally I should wait until my baby is in school, so that the hours childminding could literally be swapped for hours studying without disturbing anyone else. My almost 16 year old will be at university then too.

People shouldn't object to hobby jobs or hobby study. It's a bit like saying people should all shop at Primark and Netto.

Swedes - it was Quattrocento's original point, that I picked up on.

The point about hobby jobs being used to shirk other responsibilities is that a "hobby" job or degree, by its very definition, is not contributing anything much to the family - it's a hobby for the individual. If you go out to work full-time and earn a decent wage, you are contributing that wage to the family. So your contribution might change, from childcare/housework to cash, but it's still a contribution.

I know a woman (wife of a banker friend) who has a hobby pseudo-academic joblet and is doing a mix-and-match PhD. This costs her husband a fortune in childcare and he is expected to pull his weight in housework/cooking too. Her "hobby" costs the family a fortune in both cash and care terms. Is that selfish? Yes.

If I didn't have to work or do childcare, then surely the best possible 'hobby' I could get would be to get more educated???

I agree that a 'hobby job'or 'hobby degree' which is actually proving a burden on other family members is selfish. Like Quattro, I know a couple of wives who are like this - their kids are in school, and they have no intention of working, either in a paid or voluntary capacity. Their lives revolve around the school run, and their 'hobby' activities. I can't see how this is a useful role model for their children apart from anything else! However, you also need to ask why the husbands, who are financing this, go along with it... which makes me wonder whether some families are genuinely comfortable with very black and white, polarised roles - ie father = breadwinner, mother = stay at home and potter around with hobbies. Maybe it works for some people. I just think it's important to recognise that in this day and age it's certainly not the norm - our expectation should be that girls as well as boys will gain qualifications and want to be doctors/lawyers/teachers/bankers whatever. In families where both parents want to be equally involved in parenting and work, I can't see that the 'hobby' thing is an issue.

VictorianSqualor - getting more education is a valid type of hobby, but I think that lots of voluntary and community work can be pretty valid, too.

erm i have a philosophy degree from a former poly, and i don't think it was worth the money at all. I could have saved myself £13,000 in loan and fees (which i doubt i'll ever be able to repay) and just bought the texts with readers and taught myself. the good thing about philosophy is that it's a non-practical discipline, so you can teach yourself without any obstacle. anything you don't understand look on the net and you'll find a million and one different interpretations to stimulate your own understanding. as you're planning on the OU anyway you wont be missing out on any seminars or group discussions (which i found only confused and blurred the issues anyway, because a lot of people would just ramble off on irrelevant tangents trying to convince the lecturer they were super bright and waste everyone else's time)

DIY 'degrees' are the way to go!

My dh (already a PhD) has gone back to uni full time aged 44 to do a maths degree. The original plan was that he would teach afterwards, but he's loving it so much that he now thinks he will do something maths or computing related.

When he's finished, it's my turn. I'm either going to study physiotherapy or medicine.

We are in a different situation, as we live in Switzerland where the fees are very, very low and anyone can go to university - they just make the exams really hard and kick a lot of people out that way, so everyone works really hard.

We have friends here in Paris who both went back to university in their late 30s - he to do a Philosophy degree and she to do a Psychology degree. In their case, the woman was the source of finance for the couple - she had loads of money from her family who had a very successful business - and her DH had been kept busy over the years with a hobby job.

The hobby degrees don't seem to have made them any happier together .