To have got angry with sister over the state of her house?

[ThreePac]

Last year my sister came over to my house and suddenly burst into tears saying she was sick of her house being a shithole. She’s never been houseproud but to be honest her house has got gradually worse over the years, nothing gets redecorated , stained carpets don’t get cleaned, walls don’t get washed or repainted, broken stuff doesn’t get replaced … but I’ve never said anything as she seemed happy living like that and it wasn’t my place to question it. She was so upset and kept going on about how she loved my house but can’t seem to recreate it herself. So, I offered to help her do it up. We spent months repainting, buying replacement doors to replace the ones with holes in etc!! We recarpeted (money was never the issue) and I went around shops with her picking on out rugs, cushions, curtains, vases, mirrors etc … you name it. We completely redid her house and it took months of hard work. It looked beautiful when we’d finished and she loved it, I was so happy for her. She was posting photos on social media and everything.

I’ve not been to her house since last September.

She invited me over today. Walking into the kitchen one of the cupboard doors was hanging off and there was food splattered all over the walls and used tea bags just splattered onto the work tops. The house stunk of poo and wee from the dog … she said “look at this, you’ll love it” and took me to the living room. She’d pulled all her furniture out and given the entire room to the dog. There was stains all over the carpet and just a dog bed in the middle of the room. She’d put all her living room furniture into the dining room squashing the dining table up against the wall. I said “what the fuck have you done?” And she replied “given the dog his own room so that I dont get the rest of the house messy!” The fucking living room???!! I spent weeks decorating that for her. I’m livid. I ended up telling her “THIS is why your house never looks nice! You don’t look after stuff and make stupid decisions!” She got defensive and said it was her house and she could live however she wants. I replied “yes, but don’t ask me to help you with it ever again”.

Obviously we’re now not talking. Yes it’s her house but why let me spend months trying to make it look nice for her if she prefers it being a shithole???

It sounds like she understands on some level that this is not okay - that living in squalor is horrible.

But unless she admits again she is in need of help, there is little you can do. And I can see why you would not want to give that much help again.

why let me spend months trying to make it look nice for her if she prefers it being a shithole???

She obviously doesn't really prefer it being a shithole @ThreePac , she just finds it hard to keep on top of things. I'm the same and I have some ADHD.

The dog thing is a tactic for her to try and keep on top of the mess.

I can understand how this has driven you off the deep end with frustration. It's shit after all your hard work but also that she clearly has two teens completely taking the piss (on top of the dog). The oldest child is presumably marking time until he can get the hell out.

There's a lot of stuff on here about mental illness, adhd etc but is it potentially the case that she may be mildly intellectually disabled? How was she growing up? Does she work, did she finish school, uni?

It could be depression etc but not to make excuses for her she doesn't sound entirely normal to be honest.

Lightspeeds Who is in charge you or your kids? Im not saying they should keep their rooms spotless but to a basic standard of cleanliness and tidy for sure. If not....... in my house it would be sanctions until its reasonably clean/tidy again. With or without my help depending on age/skill level.
Otherwise you are teaching them that its fine to trash their rooms, draw on the walls, have their toys getting broken/bits lost because they are never tidied away.......... because "oh well, kids will be kids"

Which ultimately potentially leads to the chaos the ops sister is living in.

My sister and brother in law would have you believe I live in a midden. My house is lived in and yes I need to improve certain aspects of my cleaning routine but I will never be them. Point is do you want a relationship with your relatives or do you want to look for reasons to not like them. Life Is complicated, we all need to listen more and reflect on what we've been told. Understanding goes a long way. Perhaps your relatives are taking the piss, perhaps they're not, perhaps you have unreasonable expectations, perhaps you don't. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. What kind of relationship do you want with relation is the question you need to answer and let that guide you

No excuses.

I agree. If money isn't an issue, they should be getting a dog walker if she can't do it herself.

I can't walk my German shep, even with his body harness, I've barely any upper body strength and he's dog and cat aggressive, if he sees one he will attempt to go for it and you have to be strong enough to prevent that. Of course he wears a muzzle but it's still very hard to pull him away from the situation, and if I had DD with me and I was slightly distracted during the walk? The lead could easily slip from my hand in the right circumstance. It's honestly exhausting and stressful experience.

DP is the only one who walks him, but if he couldn't do that then he pays for a walker to come.

@lborgia I think you’re wasting your breath

@ThreePac what was your dsis like in school? Did she have any learning disabilities or a low IQ?

The comment about laughing at the dc throwing pizza on the ceiling strongly suggests someone with a very young mental age.

Lovely that her dh was happy enough to procreate but not take responsibility for raising those dc.

My sister's house is filthy. So much so that I don't like to visit because I always smell after and I never have anything to eat or drink there. She hasn't got any mental health issues (that is the always the MN go to reason) she just lives in a dirty house. She just doesn't see the filth and clutter and seems quite happy living like that. Some people just have very low standards.

' @MingeofDeath ' OP's sister isn't happy with it tho. She's cried about it at times etc.

@me4real*

Oh I know that. I'm just giving the example of my sister to illustrate that not everyone has MH problems. My sister and her husband are, to me, lazy around the house,. The first time I took my husband round to her house I warned him that it was a shithole and he laughed and didn't believe me. His face was an absolute picture when he went in. My sister just does not see it like that.
As pps have said MH problems are always THE go to reason on MN to explain certain behaviours when it is not the case at all. Some peope cannot understand/accept that there are people who are nasty bastards, people who live in absolute squalor etc. I used to be a district nurse and had to pick my way through days old dog turds, kneel on piss soaked carpets and much much worse. These people were not mentally ill, many were lovely, just very very dirty.They just have different values and standards that have absolutely nothing to do with having MH problems.

I can see how galling it is for you but there must be bigger problems. I cannot understand how a cupboard door in the kitchen is hanging off. I have a teens and a dog and I still can’t work it out. Or bullet holes in the door. Someone in that home is seriously destructive. My kitchen is 25 years old and very mediocre quality but still no doors hang off.

And once a few things get bad, it just snowballs. The task becomes unmanageable. Is she clearing up after three teens and a dog? Do any of them take responsibility for the house (other than the 21yo’s own room)?

The dog is a major issue and must cause a gigantic amount of work. The time investment and knowhow for training seems like it would be out of her reach.

I don’t know the answer really. I don’t think you were BU to say what you did. But equally I can see she’s not doing so well.

@deeplyrooted - thanks, but that comment about the pizza keeps coming back to me, and is why I included intellectual disabilities in my list.

Yep, it’s a waste of time, I now realise. If posters are going to start finding a correlation between my thoughts on “laziness” and DV, it’s not going to go very far is it?! The idea that you cannot tell the difference between neglect through malice, and neglect through having, for example, a low IQ, is fairly worrying in itself.

Meanwhile, it’s easy to ignore that I specifically said it doesn’t give them a pass to do what they want. Especially when they’re responsible for other humans and animals. I agreed that doing a makeover and having it trashed would be annoying.

What I stand by is that this is NOT the behaviour of someone with all their…. faculties?!

But, you know, continue to berate her and me. So much easier to dismiss a decent minority of the world.

I also understand that MN is the place to come and vent. She vented. I thought some of it was misplaced.

As a district nurse, I assume you know the difference between mental health issues, intellectual disabilities, neurodiversity, and pathological disorders then. I’m not sure anyone on here said this was all about mental health? It’s possible to have more than one thing going on.

It’s also possible to be the product of your upbringing ,and genetics, and poverty, and drug addiction. For example.

All very simplistic on here sometimes. Sure, lets just keep with the idea that there are wrong’uns in the world. So much easier to think it’s beyond dealing with.

No one who is in their right mind (to use an old fashioned expression) would be happy with a carpet soaked in piss @MingeofDeath.

@lborgia

Why should I lie about that? Some people live in absolute squalor and it doesn't bother them. They just have different standards. I used to go to one patient and they didn't have a fridge, they didn't "believe in them" (nope I don't know what they meant by that either). They aren't all neurodivergent or have MH problems, it's just the way some people live. Many patients didn't wash daily or just bathed/showered weekly. Some people just have different standards of hygiene and cleanliness. Yes it is baffling to most people but that's how it is.

@MingeofDeath That’s because they don’t know how to or are incapable of self care, not because they’re happy like that. How can you be an experienced healthcare worker and not be aware of this? It’s painful to see.

@lborgia

Understanding is not the same as making excuses, which implies that I just think they should be allowed to carry on as they are.

I'm not saying that at all. I think it's cruel to say someone is lazy, when it's something outside of their control.

Seems like it’s beyond the grasp of some people, concerning that it’s healthcare staff showing so much ignorance.

Hi @ThreePac - in the US, there’s a tv show called “Hoarders.” It’s absolutely revolting. People live in hip-high, trash-filled homes, with many of the issues you describe. Most of the people featured have mental illness problems.
Do you think your sister could possibly be suffering from some sort of mental illness that prevents her from keeping a normal clean house? It doesn’t sound from your description that your sister is operating normally on a day-to-day basis if she can’t even toss a used teabag away.
This makes me feel very bad for her and her kids. Don’t let it drag you down as well.
The thing about the US tv show is that not only are they offered assistance to clean everything out and up, they’re offered mental health support as well. Is there anything in the UK like that which might benefit your sister? I hope so.

I have given the example of my sister living in a shithole. I can assure you she is not neurodivergent, depressed, bipolar or has any other problem MH wise. She just doesn't see the filth, her standards are different to mine. I'm certainly not saying it's the case with everyone but it's just how some people live.

I am a hoarder.

She sounds exactly like a relative who did very similar sorts of things. Especially about getting family to help her clean, decorate and furnish her house because she couldn’t sort it out her self .
Whilst she didn’t have a pet she did do something that was along the same vibe.
She was diagnosed with a lack of something in her brain. We never found out what as she couldn’t remember. After I was diagnosed with adhd and read up on it I think it wouldn’t surprise me that relative had ADHD and I wouldn’t be surprised if your Dsis doesn’t have adhd.

What you describe isn’t about being lazy it is more ND. There are different types of ADHD it isn’t a one size fits all thing.

The similarities with my relative in how you describe your dsis in your updates I could almost guess what you were going to write.

Of course your dsis has always been like this. ND doesn’t suddenly appear in adult hood it is there from birth

I would imagine there are other factors at play @ThreePac. I hope somehow your relationship can be repaired and she can get some help not from you to figure out why follow through, tidying etc is hard and/or she can pay money (you mentioned money wasn't the issue) to have regular help. There are some people who have cleaning support 2-3x a week (just for 2 hrs) due to situations like this. They basically pick up after them and do small tasks like sweeping, wiping down etc.

@ThreePac

She has 3 kids at home - a 21 year old son, a 17 year old son and a 15 year old daughter. One of the doors we replaced had bullet holes in it from a BB gun ffs

The 21 year olds room is spotless, immaculate even.
The rest of the house is absolutely shocking.

Does John Wick live with her?

Given the effort that OP put in, I'd say that she must like her sister to a degree
Not necessarily. What better way to highlight the OPs awesomeness and her sisters failings 🤷‍♀️

I think she has some issues going on and that is why this is happening. Why does a teenager have a bb gun, is there no rules or standards or is everyone just allowed to run riot. Why has a dog taken over a whole room. Instead of been angry I would have sat down with her well if you could find a seat and ask her is she ok and why does she think it is ok for a dog to have the living room. Can you not talk to the 21 year old and see how she really is. You were very good to help her get the place sorted but think she needs to talk to someone as she has some issues that need counselling.