To be annoyed my friends son has kicked a hole in my wall?

[TedOnTheBed]

I have posted about his behaviour before and pretty much told I was being unsupportive. I am not she can not control him, there are no special needs involved he is brat and acts out destroying things and attacking people to get his own way. She says no he goes on a 30-45 minute rampage which ends in him doing something like smashing a tv, phone screen or head butting someone on the nose causing a nose bleed etc etc. she then gives in and he gets what he wants and he INSTANTLY snaps out of the tantrum until he hears the word no again and then it is a repeat. My AIBU is would it be mean to ban a just turned 5 year old from my house? I find his behaviour unbearable and absolutely detest spending anytime with him.

Morning everyone it all got a bit to much so I went to bed last night. I honestly think the boy doesn’t have SEN and the issue is my friend and her lack of boundaries and enforcement of rules, that was not an easy thing to say. To answer some questions the parents do not really communicate at all even about the dc, which is odd to me. Dad pays more child support than illegally required and has the children for ever contact never misses or late and will have them extra in the week when mum allows him to. The boy doesn’t behave like this for dad, I have been to the girls party at dads (mum wasn’t there) and he was a normally behaved child. Dad is stricter and the boy use to kick off there to go home when dad wouldn’t give into him but they seem to have moved past that as dad didn’t allow the behaviour. I still speak to dad if I see him and attend his parties for the kids birthdays etc and he has expressed concerns about my friends mental health. She was diagnosed with a disorder many years before the kids came along and has been treated for it ever since but I know this was a factor in the divorce according to dad, my friend tells a different story of cheating and honestly I don’t know.
The boy’s behaviour is dreadful with mum, he is violent to her, will break things, throw anything he can get his hands on, kick, bite, scream, spit, pull her hair and will throw his plate of food across the room at dinner time if there is anything on there he doesn’t want, his behaviour is just dreadful. The longer mum holds strong and doesn’t give in the worse the behaviour gets until eventually she does give in and he gets his own way, once he has his own way he is fine until he hears the word no again.
As far as the hole in the wall goes I am still upset and shocked by his behaviour and equally annoyed with myself for sparing my friends feelings, I see now that probably wasn’t the best approach to the situation.

OP,

All you can reasonably do is learn from this.

This is your home and you are under no obligation to offer it up.

The fact she never so much as acknowledged it would make me unconcerned about softly framing this.

I don't think it needs to be a complicated conversation.

You are deeply unhappy with what happened.
It was completely unacceptable and you are pissed off.
Her daughter can continue to visit on her own but it is best that she keeps his destructive behaviour away from your home.

If she goes to penalise her daughter by denying her visits to yours, that is on HER.

I would make future arrangements via her father.

I have come across a variation of this behaviour from NT children that had very soft parenting.

It was always to any type of use of the word No.

They grew out of it largely but did drink alcohol at 14 because of the lax parenting.

Your friend thinks it is ok for your property to be damaged, it isn't even worthy of an apology.

Unfortunately you have given her that message too.

If it makes it easier, tell her your husband is very upset as are you and on that basis you'd rather she doesn't visit your home whilst she is choosing to allow him to behave like this.

Because it is a choice.

Personally I just wouldn't want that child around my children and I wouldn't want her lazy parenting around me.

I appreciate other people will feel differently.

Kids behave how they are taught to. Your friend is actively harming her son at this point by not enforcing boundaries. He actually kicked a wall so hard he hurt himself and made a hole? That’s horrific. If I were you, I’d suggest it might be best if he spends more time with his dad tbh as he knows what the boundaries are there. Your friend needs to wake up and realise she’s got a lot of effort to put in to fix her relationship with him.

I feel sorry for all of you. The little boy is angry and frustrated and doesn't know how to control his emotions. Obviously your friend is struggling to enforce boundaries and this has become harder for her now her husband has left.
She sounds like she needs help and support. In regards to the wall you really need to be firm and tell your friend that you found that to be unacceptable behaviour and you can't have him to the house again while he is still liable to do damage to your house. You can still offer to have the dd round separately to play with your daughter but for the time being if the two of you are to meet up it will have to be on your own with no kids, perhaps when the kids are at their Dad's or whatever.
If she really can't afford to pay to fix the wall then there is probably no point in asking, any reasonable person would have already offered if they were going to anyway, I think you still need to say to her that it was unacceptable and point out it's now costing you money to fix - she might be embarrassed but she needs to hear it!

I also agree with pp that perhaps the boy needs to spend more time with his Dad.

Even if you take the emotional judgement out of it - shes a terrible mother, lazy, lax, inneffective. The child is a terrible child that is likely just bad with no addditional needs and no excuses; you still have the facts which is the child is hard to control at this point and the parent cannot safely take him to peoples houses as he damages things.
Whether he gets a diagnosis of something later that would help to explain this emotional dysregulation and destructive behaviour, doesnt mean that its ok for a kid to kick holes in his mums friends home.
My kids are autistic and have adhd and it was very difficult for me to take them to certain places when much younger. I obviously felt it was my shit parenting and that was made quite clear to me, but as weve all got older, ive got my own diagnoses and i am grateful that not everybody just decided we were all terrible, although certainly many did

YANBU to not have him back in your house.

The child may well have SEN, it's not normal behaviour in five year olds. He might be badly parented. He might have/be both!

I have two young children with autism. I am still responsible for their behaviour good and bad regardless of their disability. I do react differently to parents of NT children sometimes because I know how to parent my children efficiently for their needs. To some, this might look like giving in and in some ways it is, but it is the best way to diffuse an escalating situation that they cannot control.

That said. I always, always remove them from situations (it's actually the best way to deescalate mine anyway!) and I would not allow them to damage other people or their property. If my child kicked a wall they'd be scooped up and be back in the car before their feet hit the floor let alone went through said wall! You can't just brush that off and make a cuppa. It's awful.

I wouldn't end the friendship but I would discuss it with her. No good can come of ignoring it and I'd not be happy with her reaction, regardless of his behaviour!

@TedOnTheBed Worth bearing in mind that just because the child doesn't do this at school or with his Dad doesn't mean anyone can rule out SEN. That's not how it works.

Children often mask where they aren't completely comfortable. Dad 'not allowing' this behaviour is likely nothing to do with it if he's ND. More likely child isn't as comfortable with his Dad so he masks and then your poor friend gets the brunt of it afterwards.

@fruitypancake

Something beneath the surface going on. Yes behaviour unacceptable but it's telling a story. Your friend and her son need your support

I don't think 'support' extends to having a child literally wreck your house when he comes over. It's perfectly possible for OP to be supportive and friendly without tolerating having holes kicked in her walls by a five-year-old. It's not fair on the OP and it's not fair on her own children.

She can meet her friend at a playground with the kids or something like that, but it is totally reasonable not to want your house ruined by someone else's child, regardless of whether that child has additional needs. OP's friend hasn't offered to pay for the damage and she hasn't apologised and she won't acknowledge that her child's behaviour isn't standard for a five-year-old. OP can absolutely be supportive, but the child and his behaviour - whatever the underlying cause - are ultimately not the OP's responsibility to deal with.

What has your friend said about the hole in your wall? Has she offered to get it repaired.

And is there any chance the boy could have witnessed any DV between his parents and is replicating that? Just a thought.

I just wouldn't invite them around again though.

I have a 5 year old little boy who is autistic and most likely adhd and can be majorly triggered by no.

I'm careful over what I say no to and use other ways of saying no, ie you can do x or y when he wants z. BUT when I say no explicitly it is a clear non-negotiable and never backed down over. Children with additional needs more than any child need firm boundaries, they just often have to be implemented differently.

He'd never kick someone else's wall but if he did he would be helping to clear up the damage and then immediately home and I would be making sure to cover the full cost.

Having additional needs does not mean no parenting, it means a child needs different parenting but that doesn't mean no parenting at all. Consequences must be natural/logical but I believe that is the case for any child.

If you are good friends it might be worth pointing her in the direction of Ross greene's explosive child book and Yvonne Newbold support group. Both can be a brilliant help.

Sounds like your friend is in denial about two things.
Firstly her son and his behaviour. She can't / won't accept how out of line it is and the fact it's only with her as opposed to when he is in school or with his dad allows her to keep denying this. As does your lack of reaction when he misbehaved. (I'm not criticising, just setting out what I see)
Then seems also to be in denial about her ability to cope as a parent. If she has mental health issues then disciplining her son could just be beyond her energy at the moment. In a way she could be masking her own challenges by downplaying how serious it is. She needs support to recognise how serious this is, that it's going to create bigger issues the longer it goes on and that it's not good parenting.
She may listen to you - perhaps a coffee and a gentle but firm chat without the children around.
I would be clear to her that a line has been crossed and that you are her friend and want to help her here - whether she will accept that from you is another thing.

"the boy use to kick off there to go home when dad wouldn’t give into him"

Can you give a little more information about this statement? As written, it seems to mean that if the boy tantrums when he is having contact with his father, his father sends him home to his mother. And that the little boy uses this knowledge (that he will be sent home if he misbehaves) to be allowed to go home to his mother if his father won't give him what he wants.

If that is indeed what is happening, then his father is actually NOT parenting more skillfully than his mother. Instead the father is only parenting until he runs out of patience, and then offloading the parenting to the mother. If so, he's actually contributing to the problem. It may appear to be effective but essentially the child knows his father's love is conditional on good behavior. Also, lots of "good parenting" is about having consequences that can be applied consistently. The father has an easy behavior management tool that the mother does not have: the consequence for bad behavior is that you leave my home and then I don't have to deal with you. Of course the child obeys the father!

The mother, on the other hand, does not have this tool. You say that because of this behavior, she just gives in to him. However, think about the reality of what "perfect parenting" looks like with a child who pulls their own parent's hair, kicks, bites, and throws things. That is not a situation that is easy to handle with two parents working together, let alone as a single parent.

This child needs to be evaluated. It's not your job to make it happen, nor could you, but the mother is clearly way out of her depth and I don't think the father is as supportive as he may superficially appear.

@aloris no sorry I must of worded it badly. If he gets told no at dads he tantrums and demands to go home lashing out, dad doesn’t actually take him home tho. He deals with the behaviour and puts a consequence in place like no TV, after about 4 or 5 visits of dad holding strong he no longer tries his behaviour on with him as he doesn’t get his own way.

For those asking, I had a text conversation with her today about meeting to take the kids swimming in the week as it’s half term. She asked what I had planned for today so I told her nothing much just going to Screwfix and B&Q for diy supplies and she still did mention or acknowledge the hole in my wall.

@TedOnTheBed - For those asking, I had a text conversation with her today about meeting to take the kids swimming in the week as it’s half term. She asked what I had planned for today so I told her nothing much just going to Screwfix and B&Q for diy supplies and she still did mention or acknowledge the hole in my wall.
Then you have to.

Stop skirting around the issue and tackle it head on.

Telling someone that you're going to Screwfix for DIY supplies is like saying I'm going to the supermarket for food to some people. They just will ignore it.

Why didn't you pull her up on it and say that "I'm going to screwfix and B&Q to get DIY supplies in order to fix the massive hole your DS kicked in my wall. I'll send you on the bill once we've worked out how much it's going to cost"....but I guess you didn't do that, did you?

Can you approach her ex about it? You're concerned about their DS because he is walking all over his mother based on your recent experience and oh, that happens to have been their son kicking a hole in your wall in your home?
I really don't see the friendship lasting so you should at least get the wall fixed at their cost rather than be out of pocket yourselves.

Of course she’s not going to acknowledge you going to screw fix, she didn’t even acknowledge him doing it! You’re going to have to take a deep breathe and speak to her directly about it, because she sure as hell isn’t inclined to broach the subject.

I absolutely would not have him in my house again. Her being your friend doesn’t oblige you to host a child who wrecks your belongings.

@TedOnTheBed

You don't need to 'ban him' from your house again, just don't invite your friend and her DCs round again. Your DD will make other friends so hob have to let go of this friendship with her DD as you can't have both safety for your DCs as her DS will come too if you invite One of her DCs and that's not fair.

If she turns up uninvited stand at the door and simply don't invite her in as it's not convenient.

Arrange to meet her out if you must. Where you can leave if it gets too much Sounds like school aren't picking up on destructive behaviour in classroom for this year R DS child then it's to do with mum or parents. As generally LD type SEN behavioural problems present across the board

If she asks and moans about no longer coming round to yours , at that point I'd be honest and say "we can't afford to repair damage and neither can you so we haven't asked as our house isn't suitable -whilst DS is going through this stage -to come round to, happy to meet you out and about. "

If she's a good friend she'll understand, if she whinges then she's not a good friend/ a CF!

I would be mortified if my DCs had ever damaged a friends house kicking through plasterboard in their wall!!! Even kicking the wall or any property in my home repeatedly would have made me ask my friend to take him home there and then (after we'd checked his foot) . I don't want my DCs frightened by a violent DC nor learning aggressive behaviour

I sadly find myself in a very similar situation, but a couple of years older than this poor child. I have every sympathy with the OP, I really dislike myself to how it feel about this child who is really just a product of poor discipline. It's not his fault, but by the same token I don't want my house and belongings to continue to be ruined so have put some distance between us. It's really altered how I see the mother.

Is he in reception class? My ds had no problems in school until he moved into Year1. Reception class with the play based learning centred around their choices suited him fine. But then the more rigid system in year one (especially as it was a mixed year1/2 class) was when the problems started 😔

You have to stop pussyfooting around with her. People who constantly use their victim status to avoid accountability and gain a sense of power over people are often covert narcissists or have borderline personality disorders. She is clearly deliberately avoiding the very unsubtle hint and is raising a very damaged child. If you dig deeper, I bet you will find that there it is no accident that the DD does not have the same behavioural problems as the DS. Is he her golden child? Does she pay as much attention to her DD? Is the DD invisible in comparison? (Has the DD pretty much given up? Suffering from low self-esteem?) You need to grow a pair and let this friend know that you are displeased with her avoidance of responsibility for the damage done and will be sending her a bill for the cost of repairs (or items required, if DH is doing it himself, but frankly, why the fuck should he spend his valuable time sorting out her mess?). You have stated that her ex pays well above what he is required to, she is not as poor as she states.

I asked a mum friend to leave my house one day when her son had picked up a long toy and was whacking the floor table walks window throwing toys and hitting other DCs with the toys and my then mummy friend wasn't stopping him nor intervening. Too busy chatting to other mums (had a play date for few young DCs and mums at my house) .

I'd taken it from him and said "no hitting be kind please" and took him over to his mum explaining and asked her to please supervise him. She didn't, he ran off , within 5 mins continued restarted throwing toys at walls and smacked against my window and broke one, then whacked my toddler & another DC round the head with the broken toy - who both burst into tears. The other mum and I intervened , picking up our DCs to move them away from this boy and saying to her son " don't hit or throw toys, go back to mummy"to him.

She just carried on ignoring his behaviour as if it didn't matter. She seemed irritated we were asking her to watch her son at all!

At that second point I said 'You need to take him home now please ", she initially ignored me, replying she'd 'leave in a bit, he was just playing' snd turned her back to her son and to me, so I went to my hallway and picked up her bags, their shoes and coats , gave them to her and stood there repeating "I'm sorry but you need to take him home now please." waiting for her to leave. It was very awkward but I wasn't having it- his mum ignore this.

I didn't invite her round my house again - because she could have managed his behaviour and chose not to. I don't owe anyone a 'free for all' rampage in my house nor at my or other children.

@TedOnTheBed

The Sun has picked up this and it’s appeared on my FB news feed.

You might want to have a conversation!

Oh know why do the papers do this? I guess at least she knows I don’t want him at my house anymore.

@TedOnTheBed

Oh know why do the papers do this? I guess at least she knows I don’t want him at my house anymore.

Oh no has she mentioned anything about it to you. Hopefully she hasn't seen it and you have enough time to explain.