to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

pointydog - Xenia's solutions are not ridiculous and impossible. She very sensibly applies business outsourcing logic to her domestic organisation, and she gives examples of what she does to inspire others.

Of course, many people do not earn a net hourly wage that is higher than the hourly rate they need to pay those to whom they outsource tasks, and so it makes no economic sense for them to outsource them. However, even when it doesn't make economic sense, sometimes it's a good idea to outsource them for other reasons (not doing something you loathe; conflict avoidance in a couple).

On the issue of passing on work to other women - the people to whom I outsource domestic tasks are just as likely to be men as women. In the last month I have had the window cleaner (man) round; had an electrician (man) to fix my lighting; taken clothes to the mender (man); had my ironing/hoovering/dusting done by the cleaner (woman); had my shopping delivered (man). It's not a sexist thing at all. Service jobs are just as often done by men as women.

No-one starts out as a doormat. Or with the expectation of being one. But life tends to happen to you IME and unless you are a quite disturbingly focused and determined person who has a life plan at the age of 8, it doesn't always happen the way you want it to. And then you either cope, 'realign your expectations', or you throw your toys out of the pram, which may be satisfying (and on occassions essential) but then the other people you've gathered around you get hurt. It isn't as simple as just walking out because your partner doesn't do the washing up properly.

Also those partners who may seem unhelpful and selfish can often shine in certain situations.

I am not talking about relationships where violence, bullying and intimidation are the norm of course, just ones where the female partner feels put upon. But I didn't get the impression that vacua meant those sort of situations particularly.

I agree with the poster who said that ofen thnigs are painted blacker here than they really are because it's good to offload.

Well, if someones partner is a lazy/messy sod it isn't usually grounds for divorce though.
Actually my sister is a messy beast and when she met her husband she had just moved and everything was in boxes so he had fallen in love with her before the boxes gradually became empty and you could no longer see the carpet. And the truth of her messiness dawned on him. So 15 years on they both work he does most of the housework and she does the cooking.

I like to clean and tidy and make a place lovely but nowadays with 4 children i can't manage that, my husband is a messy beast who does nothing to help in the house and is impossible to controll/house train him, he is the provider and he does pay for a cleaner 2 hours a week £16 (worth every penny) but we don't live together so that helps

I thought "unreasonable behaviour" was grounds for divorce in England?

Yes, and if someone can't live with it they could choose to divorce. And if a person feels so down trodden and forced into the role of drudge they could choose to become a single parent and that may be preferable but not to me.
I am the drudge but I don't feel a victim, I think my choices have brought me to this and my choice is to stick with it. (and possibly moan about it sometimes)

They are ridiculous and impossible for the majority of people. That's just a fact, regardless of being based on business outsourcing.

And it the apparent lack of understanding that this sort of advice is so unlikely to inspire the ordinary punter, that irritates me

pointydog - by "ridiculous and impossible" do you really mean "unaffordable"?

yes, unaffordable to such an extent and to so many that they just become ridiculous and impossible

pointydog - I agree that some domestic outsourcing solutions - nannies, in particular - are very expensive and way beyond the pocket of the majority.

But, quite honestly, some domestic outsourcing solutions are really quite cheap. For example, I have my shopping delivered which is a massive saving of energy and aggravation - and it costs me practically nothing - sometimes it's free (because I buy a very large volume) and sometimes I pay an amount which is equivalent to the cost of petrol/parking or a taxi ride were I to do it myself.

Likewise clothes mending - it's really cheap, much, much cheaper than buying myself a sewing machine.

Surely this is often just about different expectations and standards.

My exdh was a truly lazy sod around the house and this caused no end of problems for us as I too am pretty lazy when it comes to domestic chores (hence name ).

I hate living in complete squalor but refuse to do all the work required to prevent that unless I am living on my own. If someone else lives with me they need to pitch in too.
One solution was to hire a cleaner as we could afford it but Xdh wouldn't. He saw it as 'demeaning' to the cleaner so the arguments went on.

We eventually divorced and although the domestic chores argument wasn't the main cause, it did however highlight how my needs and wants were not listened to by dh and were poo pooed. I personally chose not to have children with him at first because I was worried about how much worse things would get once we had children.

dh was also incredibly messy when I met him but I would not describe him as a slob, he just does not see it as important to have a tidy, clean house. He lives in his head a lot and his home surroundings have almost no effect on him.

He is however sensitive to the fact that I do want the place to be reasonably clean and tidy. He is thus happy to pay for a cleaner and does meake quite an effort to clean and tidy up as well.

I still do loads more cleaning on a daily basis than dh but that is because my standards are higher. That is just the way he is and in fact he makes great efforts to accomodate my needs on this so the fact that he tries is enough for me even though that does mean he doesn't clean the kitchen surfaces after cooking or even consider washing the kitchen floor.

He does stack the dishwasher and tidy away but he just doesn't see that the surfaces need cleaning more than once a day. The thought that kitchen surfaces need wiping down after every time you have prepared a meal is just not on his radar.

Also he is happy to let paperwork pile up everwhere, but is also able to find stuff easily in the mess because he has a good memory for where he puts things. I on the other hand can't stand this because I have a bad memory so end up seraching everywhere for pieces of paper and admin. I have to be very organised and put everything in a set place otherwise I can't find it again.

Lazycow - you are right that expectations/standards are often pretty different.

However, IME, people do quite easily get accustomed to a higher standard of living. My father, for one, was brought up in a family where material comforts were not a priority whereas my mother's mother used to keep a very comfortable home. My mother acclimatised my father to a much higher standard of living and he pays to maintain that very happily, now that he has got used to it.

so the lesson I am drawing here is if you can pay people to do drudgy tasks, you can drastically reduce the chances of becoming a drudge.

well I never

OK not everyone can afford to pay for assistance with domestic work. But where I think Xenia's argument is useful is that it is helpful to point out to men that shitwork doesn;t just magically get done, someone has to do it. THerefore, if you live in a house with another adult, if you hate housework, you will have to pay for your share to be done rather than just expecting the other adult to do it. And if you are a man on a moderate income, then part of being in a fair relationship is understanding that your partner's needs and wants matter and so if you don;t want to do housework then paying someone to do your share is a higher priority than three nights a week in the pub, for instance.

I think lazycow has a point about expectations, my dad has always done his share and so that is what I expect from dh. I've never lived in a domestic situation that was different, so it wouldn't occur to me not to have a situation where the men in the house (I include ds in this) don't pull their weight.
I also strongly believe that children learn from their domestic situations and I wouldn't want my ds thinking that housework is what 'women do'.

you are actually right Anna - as I have noticed dh will tidy up on his own now and does have a slightly lower tolerance for mess than he used to have. I on the other hand am very slowly learning to tolerate a bit more disorder without thinking that chos will ensue.

I am hoping that in the next 20 years or so our standards will converge and meet

yes, madamez, that part is useful

I think Xenia goes beyond that - I think she tries to demonstrate that every task in a household can be itemised and you can make a choice of whether to do it yourselves (keep it in house) or outsource it. And if you choose to keep a task in house, you have to decide who is best placed, given their other contribution and commitments, to do it.

except there is usually no choice

Lazycow - if you work at it, I expect your standards will converge.

Something that I have done quite a bit of is re-organising things like storage systems (eg clothing) so that they are incredibly easy to use. For example, it's hopeless, IMO, expecting children to use chests of drawers with folded clothes efficiently - so I have nearly everything on hooks and hangers. When I first suggested this to my partner, he was horrified - but now that the system is in place, he agrees it works brilliantly, and it has dramatically reduced our aggro (he couldn't bear the children flinging clothes all over the floor and used to shout at them, which I hated).

My eldest son is 16 and he will do chores but not unless I tell him and insist he does them so I guess when he is an adult (like most men I think)he will probably need a wife who insists he pulls his weight with house chores.

I didn't know how to make him self motivated to do chores.

pointydog - you always have the choice of itemising all the tasks in a household and creating an efficient system, even if you only share it between the people living in the house.

This is kind of my point rosylily, my ds doesn't like doing chores but he does them because he understands they need to be done and he sees that it's not just the women of this house that do them.

"you can make a choice of whether to do it yourselves (keep it in house) or outsource it."

"And if you choose to keep a task in house"

I was referring to these 'choice' bits of your post, anna

Why don't you write more explicit posts, then?

And, like I wrote earlier, there are often things that emerge as very low cost (eg having shopping delivered) once you have taken a long, hard, cold look at the organisation of your life.