to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

Message withdrawn

ooh, something to look forward to when get back then

am going to 11am meeting now, what a diva

I read so many tales of bullies over Christmas that I thought you must be talking about them, Vacua.

Hadn't noticed many people moaning about doing the washing-up type things myself.

"2. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?"

This isn't true. People are responsible for their own behaviour, particularly when they mistreat or exploit others. What you've just written there is a charter for bullies, smug ones at that.

I do think there is some truth in point 2. I am great believer in the saying "people treat you the way you let them treat you."

because it can be exhausting to have tantrum after tantrum after tantrum just to get the most basic things done. It really can be easier to just do it yourself and pretend to yourself you'd be worse off without them

It's strong, capable, intelligent women who can suffer for the longest time at the hands of a subtle bully. Nobody wants to be 'That Woman', nobody who grew to adulthood swearing no man would ever own her wants to admit that a man is at least renting her long term, no woman who at 19 was a rabid feminist would admit to doing the brunt of the donkey work because she is pregnant and working and has a 2 year old and her blood pressure is up and she is only human and just cannot face the fight of making him do something.

Nobody wants to be that woman. So when you come to the realisation that you are that wman, it can be so so hard to get out of the situation, because how can you ask for help if you can't admit what is wrong?

I am still ashamed of the way I allowed myself to be treated for years, all the while frothing about feminism on the surface. None of my friends could quite believe it when I explained that I had to call the police to make my ex leave. They thought I was stronger than that. I wanted them to think I was stronger than that. Who wants to be a bloody victim?

The posts that really concern me are those that say 'he treats me really badly, goes off and gets pissed on Xmas eve instead of being home with me and the kids like he promised he would...etc etc, and then post a little later but I love him and 'he's really great with the kids'.

These are the more worrying situations - the fact that some women think they are posting 'A Rant', when half of what they posted would be grounds for me to be packing a case.

I do agree that to some degree that people treat you the way you let them treat you. That being said, it can still be a hard cycle to break. I tolerated treatment in a previous relationship that I would NEVER tolerate now. And I'd say some of it was stupidity in not seeing it for what it was initially, and then embarrassment and not wanting others to see how bad I'd let it get. But yes, looking back I can say I allowed him to treat me badly - because I stayed and took it. Oversimplification - yes, I suppose. But there it is.

And yes, there does seem to be a lot of people having these types of problems lately, but then I believe the holidays are usually a big stirrer of domestic issues.

Lots of different issues here.
On the general one of women who complain but take no action yes they are often their own worst enemy. They pretend men can't change nappies, they pretend they can't get the children to sleep etc because they want to maintain their own sense of importance (usually because they don't have anything else important in their life like a career). If they aren't happy at home they should work. If they hate work they should give it up but not just complain about things all the time.

I have hardly ever had a conversation with my sister ever when she hasn't been negative. Occasionally I have tackled her over it. She says she doesn't always feel that way but that is what comes out - in other words she doesn't email about the nice things just wants to get nasty things off her chest. This is very hard for the people around her.

On the question of doing too much just try to do less. Yes, mess might mount up but that might be a small price to pay for stopping enabling the behaviour you want to stop. Tantrums are never the solution or answer. You need division of jobs that is fair and then ensure you don't do the other person's jobs. You need to know what is the most you can take, when you are too burdened to take something else on and then to take a decision not to do XYZ.

On the more fundamental issues than women complaining because men don't tidy up (which isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things - just make sure you as women earn enough to pay a cleaner to do the cleaning up is the simple solution to that one) to the critical - she is abused but does not leave, that is a different issue entirely. As for when you leave an abusive marriage that's a hard issue for everyone male and female to decide - I left after 19 years married when I was only staying for the sake of the children and the older children asked me to be rid of him.

I agree with xenia

In some of these posts I can hear my own mother's whining martyr voice. We stayed with them for Christmas, and it went really well because my siblings and our spouses all agreed we would not insist on helping this year, and nor would we get annoyed when she prevented anyone from helping and then whined about how she had to do everything herself.

I mentioned this in the coffee room at work this morning and was startled to find most of my colleagues had similar experiences with their mother or their MIL.

I think it is a passive-aggressive power thing. These women refuse to allow their dhs or dcs learn to even make a sandwich or put on a wash. They keep everyone dependent on them, and needing them, but yet feel bitter that they wind up doing most of the work.

My mum did that - refused to teach me how to use the washing machine, and when I taught myself, berated me for doing it wrong, and when I did it right it was always "the wrong time" - then bitched incessantly about the amount of washing she had to do.

Happily, I was a teenager of the oblivious variety, and i didn't notice or care that she was flogging herself to exhaustion. It was her own fault, nobody made her.

Vacua, sometimes people (women, men whatever) are forced into the role of martyr by ciurcumstances. It's not as easy as flexing your muscles and delegating..

But most of those mothers were brought up pre-feminism when they were taught almost from birth that their job was going to be their family's chief cook and bottle washer. It's hard to escape years of conditioning especially if the other half in the relationship expects their wife to wait on them as their due.

There are plenty of blokes out there still who think housework and childcare are "women's" work.

Your expectations in life are usually set by your experiences in the home as a child. My mum and dad are a team and helped each other out with all the chores and also employed a cleaner. They worked together in my dads business so they both appreciated how hard both of them worked and so there was none of this 'womans' work crap.
So you can guess my attitude. Dp on the other hand was brought up by a dyed in the wool traditionalist and would probably unthinkingly let me do the lions share of the house work. HOWEVER and this is the important bit - he is an intelligent man and he knows that this would be unfair. So he pulls his weight, not always without being reminded but he always does.
Needless to say his dm thinks he is hard done by

IME, a lot of the women who complain about the smaller things didn't put their foot down at the beginning, or were all too happy to play 'house' then got bored of it and now expect their partners to change something that has been 'normality' in their home for a long time.

I lose count of the amount of times I read about how DH has gone to the pub, been there for hours, not answering phone etc, or sat on their arse all day every day whislt the woman cleans around him, lifting his feet for the vaccuuming, I have been there, I used to be that woman, and I do think I am partly to blame for my XDP's behaviour.

My DP now, wouldn't do it, because from day 1, he knew I wouldn't accept it, he also knows I wouldn't dream of doing it to him, nor would he expect me too.

Thoguh there is a great deal to be said about the way it is in the childhood home. See if you can get in their parents house ASAP when you get together and note what you don't like about it, because it's likely that will be where the problems lie when you live together.

Brillian post, Xenia, totally agree with you.

Agree with Colditz on all counts - actually i feel a little sad about this thread although I can see the thinking behind it. the danger is always that the women who "vent" about things here, might not have that outlet if they're made to feel as stupid and inadequate in the virtual world as they are in the real world.

yes I agree with colditz, anorak and others who have said it's not always that clear-cut and that strong, intelligent women can find themselves manipulated into a bad situation.

I think that there is an element of what you have seen as a child but ultimately we have to take responsibility for what we put up with.

I put up with an abusive relationship for years, he did not need to be violent although there were flash points but I was totally controlled and I put up with it. There was an element of me re-enacting what I had seen as a child as my dad and my stepdad were both very similar, in fact my husband was an angel comapared to them. But I did not live in a vacuum I knew that although I may not have grown up within a healthy family I had seen healthy relationships and knew how they worked. My grandparents who were the closest I had to real parents were married very happily for 60 years in a very equal respectful relationship and I had friends in healthy equal respectful relationships.

Looking back there were reasons why I stayed and I did for nearly ten years, firsty it didn't happen overnight, he was the perfect boyfriend for 2 years and then it gradually slipped until 3 years later I was living a nightmare. I am a person who sees good in people, wants to help them, cure them and I was convinvced that one day he would return to being the nice boyfriend if only I could help him. I also went through 2 extrememly bitter divorces as a child and the thought of ending a relationship filled me with fear, so I put up with a nightmare relationship as I thought thast ending it would be worse. I also wanted to do better than my mum, I wanted my realtionships to work, I did not want to remake her mistakes. To this day most of my mistakes come about through my trying to avoid making the errors my mum made. On a less proud note he was also minted, I can remember many a time balancing out in my head what do I want more a nice boyfriend or my designer lifesyle. He was away a lot, I had affairs and I could just tolerate it. I was also , I still am, a very proud woman, I never let anyone know until the day I left my marriage what I was going through. I came from a very poor uneducated background and I was the golden girl of the family, the only one who had done well and I did not want to admit my life is a sham.

LOoking back now I take the blame for what I went through, I could have walked away and should have done. I take the blame for bringing a daughter into that relationship, even though she was not born from a consenuual sexual encounter, if I had not been there it could not have happened. I can only hold my head high now because I had the sense to leave when my dd was born, although even then he kicked me out I just refused to come back when he changed his mind.

Now my dp knows that if he does not give me the respect I deserve I will be out of that door, but it is a two way process and I also give him that respect, much more repect than I ever gave my husband and I give it willingly and not out of fear.

Having said that you will find me here sometimes having a whinge about him, but that is ventingwhich all of us should be able to do.

Twinset

I have a close friend who went through something similar to you, but not as bad

They are two very different issues - abuse and martyrdom over domestic burdens.

On the light issue of a spouse not pulling their weight sometimes you just have to be very clear about things. The person who said look at the home is right. Before I married my ex was showing me his system of drying shirts, explaining how he kept house (for himself and very well) and discussing how childcare would be shared in a relationship where both of us worked. I was very keen those issues were discussed before we married. Despite the marriage failure that was nothing to do with domestic burdens. He did as much if not more than I did at home.

What we did was share out jobs so in a sense we each had our own. He put the washer and dishwasher on before we left for work every day (so the cleaner could empty them) so he was the washing, dishwasher person. He dealt with the cloth nappies in the 1980s when we had 3 children still in nappies at night. I did all the school and family admin and tax returns and school bags. We both supervised home work and music practice. Then there would be jobs we shared when we both got home from work depending on who was there and we tended to split the children for bed time stories each doing some of that. He took one child to school and I took the other 2 etc etc.

What I detest is stay at home mothers at mothers dos at school who sit there for hours slagging off their men as if the men were a second child in that terrible female way suggesting - ah the poor little man cannot put on a nappy etc. It's demeaning to men and awfully disloyal and you know they're lying through their teeth and just trying to preserve their precious little domestic domain and supposed power base.

Agree its venting, I vent from time to time [just occasionally ) and when doing so don't sit there and list 'and of course Dh does the washing up, jhelps with the kids when at home'- I just vent.

I haven't read all of this thread (sorry) but wanted to include my twopenneth (slightly off point) that imo, people who complain about being so busy because they have to 'run a household' are ridiculous, unless they are Victorians in charge of a staff of 200 or something. Nobody I've met who has complained about running a household has actually been doing anything other than living somewhere with their family.

But it's not as clear-cut as that I think Xenia - either abuse or martyrdom. Sometimes there's a subtle insidious mix of both which perfectly intelligent capable men/women find themselves subject to.

Of course men can be subject to being demeaned by patronising women just as the same is true vice versa. The problem is on Mumsnet that just bundling all venting under the category of "martyrdom" is a bit unhelpful and puts people off getting stuff off their chests where this might be their only outlet IMO.

I can understand why women who don't have this problem would think it's utterly daft - you have to live it to understand it I think!