to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

thank you cash. Sorry to all those superior mumsnetters who have simply millions of like minded chums to talk to about their fantastic relationships but read the threads from abused timewasters like myself.
why read them?

Have only skimmed the thread but mostly agree with Colditz.

" just make sure you as women earn enough to pay a cleaner to do the cleaning up is the simple solution"

Errm, I just don't know where to begin in responding to that - (although I kind of understand the points you are making Xenia, it doesn't work or last for everyone - relationships are fluid, the goalposts, the power base, wahtever you call it, move every so often and for some people never come back their way. Your view is a rather simplistic way of seeing things imo)

Do cleaners earn enough as cleaners to pay cleaners to clean up their houses? Or do they not count in this discussion?

Passing the work down the line to another woman to make up for a lazy sexist bloke in a relationship who isn't doing his fair share isn't a solution.

SOme people are passive-agressive martyrs, true, but some are also being exploited, quite often by cocklodgers. A cocklodger, for the uninitiated, is the bloke who has moved in with a single mum, got his feet under the table, expects to be fed and cleaned up after and humoured in every way, all in return for the occasional perfunctory shag. Because some people still think that a woman without some sort of couple-relationship is some kind of failure and therefore women should put up with just about anything from a man so long as he allows her to pin the label of 'partner' on him.

Abuse is a bit of a different matter from domestic uselessness or selfishness, I agree (being a thoughtless sod who just believes in the loo-cleaning/bedmaking/cooking fairies is tiresome but not actually evil).

Some people struggle more than others. Some cope better than others.

I suspect a great deal of what we read is simply venting - a desire to be heard/acknowledged, and perhaps offered a bit of sympathy. Also, some people don't have lots of friends or maybe none at all so this site is invaluable.

Cleaning is work Elizabeth and employing someone to do this work in your home means it is recognised as work that has a value by those who have to pay for it, be they men or women. Is my employer lazy and selfish to be passing on work to me?

I read Elizabeth's post in a completely different way tbh.

which way Mercy?

baconeggnchips - didn't mean to get yours (or anyone's) backs up, have been a lone parent for well over a decade so the ways of the coupled-ups are a bit opaque to me. I've read the threads and thought whyyyyyyy whyyyyyy whyyyyyy do all the housework when you feel ill/are unappreciated/get no support and why stay and so on. I did overlook the basic letting off steam point of posting generally and am certainly not elevating myself to a position of dictating what others should or shouldn't post!

Just curious and maybe ever so slightly provocative, lots of very interesting responses anyway.

"Cleaning is work"

Of course I think it's work. I'm not sure how you could get anything else from my post.

The point I'm making is that there are certain men who think it's work that is beneath them, thus their wives/partners are left in the position of either doing it all themselves or, if they are well off enough, paying someone else (almost always a woman) to do it for them. Paying another woman to do what should be the man's fair share doesn't get over the problem of his sexism which in my experience almost always manifests itself in other ways in the relationship, domestic work usually only being the most visible.

Those men will only continue to think it is beneath them (re household tasks not the abusive situations) if they are not made to do it.

The 'cleaning' as such not being done by the male, IMO is not the big problem in the relationships in which the women are fallign over themselves doing everything, the lack of respect and responsibilty is.

Even years ago when it was totally unheard of for a man to clean or cook, it was equally shared, it was just as unheard of as a woman going to work, or fixing the car or putting up a shelf. It was when it became ok for women to do these things but men didn't progress and do the 'women's tasks' that a problem arose.

I am a SAHM, whereas DP works full-time so I would not expect him to do as much aroundthe house as I do, however I do expect him to get off his butt if he see's something needs doing. Because I expect this of him, he will, but just in the same way as I respect that he works a full-time job to pay for our lifestyle.

This is one area I feel 'equality' grayed somewhat, it doesn't IMO mean that men shoudl do what is considered women's jobs, but that tasks should be shared equally.

You are right of course, but that is a more fundemental problem in a relationship. I don't think that that has to be true of most people who employ a cleaner.
Our cleaner is paid from our joint finances because we both work. I work part time, he works far more than full time so essentialy it is his share of the excess house work she is doing. We are happy to pay her as we both know that the work needs to be done and it is not practical for dp to do it and it would not be fair for me to do it on top of all the work I do. Dp is many things but he isn't lazy.

I don't worry about how the cleaner manages her cleaning at home in the same way as my employers don't worry about how I manage mine as it is none of their business.

This is so hugely oversimplistic (OP - haven't read the rest). My dh is domestically useless - do you think I haven't told him to get off his big hairy butt? (I'm very assertive).....What do you suggest - divorce? A strike? (no thanks, I don't want to live in a fetid squalid midden ...but he would be quite oblivious and quite able to tolerate it)...

Come on - I'm all ears and waiting for advice

It's not martyrdom to get on and do it (whilst regularly berating him)...it's the only option

lol 2 posts down 'made to do it' errr how?

a loaded gun pointed at his testicles? ... decree nisi?

He should pay for a cleaner HMC

Hmm. I was brought up by a mother who did "everything", because she'd seen too many women living with things undone waiting for their DH to get round to it. However my father did the bills and admin and organised holidays etc.

Having seen how frustrated my mother got with her lot I made sure we discussed this before we married. We split all the chores. We shared the cooking and shopping then I took laundry and he took cleaning. Trouble was my chores got bigger and bigger.

2 years ago he took on a promotion at work and does extra hours, so now his cleaning is down to the bare minimum- usually kitchen sides and livingroom floor. I end up doing stuff like emptying bins (his job) because otherwise we have rubbish everywhere. I drip and moan and nag and he just ignores me. All around us are half-jobs he hasn't got around to (just as my mother said) that I refuse to do. It's taken him so long to sort out the bedrooms that 2 of the kids have moved out... The shower doesn't work (2 years); the garden fence needs replacing (3 years) etc etc. He spends his days off sitting on the settee playing games on his phone. I spend mine paying bills, washing clothes, and grocery shopping...

How could I have done this differently? (and we can't afford a cleaner )

This is a bit off subject but still under the catogory of 'letting the man get away with things,' it's when women let their men have the final say even if it means she misses out.

Eg: I asked my friend if she watched the Strictly come dancing and she said "no because my dp wants to watch the X Factor so we watch that. I would like to watch the dancing because i don't really like the X Factor but he says no."

I know it's only telly but whats that about?

There is also an assumption (in Xenia's post at least) that even a two income household can afford a cleaner for a couple of hours a week.

There are plenty of families where that 2x £8 means a lot!

There is also the question of expectation. Situations and people change.

We could easily afford a cleaner but i would be one of those people who cleaned up before she came so she doesn't think we are messy!

Not all cleaners are female in London at least although ours is. We all outsource lots of jobs and that resolves some domestic problems but I have never been in a relationship when a man couldn't and wouldn't stick his hand down a toilet, cook, vaccum or clean up child sick. No woman should accept a position where she is given awful dross jobs which the man won't do.

Hoewver if you feel over whelmed it's often worth taking stock and thinking what will help. At one stage when we both worked full time the weekends were full of driving 3 under 9s to very distant parties. So we got our week day nanny on Saturdays specifically to do all that boring driving around whilst we could stay with the child who wasn't invited. It really helped. Other times we've decided shopping was a problem so we got it delivered when the cleaner was here to put it away or had the nanny do the weekly shop or at one point on babies 4 and 5 the novelty of bathing them every night had worn off after about 3 months and the nanny wanted to bath them so that was delegated and I found that much easier - that I took them over ready washed ready to feed for bed time stories.

Also we had a deal that I got up mostly in the first year when I was breastfeeding if he did all the night interruptions after the first birthday. I thought that was fair as we both worked full time. In other words you keep assessing the equity issue

On evenhope's post above, my ex did DIY i nthe school holidays so it had to wait a bit but he was very energetic and effective, both of us were very hard working and both liked a tidy house so we had similar standards, if anything he was from a cleaner home than my parents'. However when he left (I am divorced) I did find it a relief to be able to hire people in to do those DIY things on a regular basis and they are done slightly more efficiently now.

I agree with you in theory Vacua but look at Evenhope - her post made me sad - these things are never clearcut.

So in response to Evenhope - your post just demonstrates that these situations are progressive.

What are the solutions - well you could:

(i) Put up with it - if the price you pay for putting up with it is not too extreme in terms of personal cost

(ii) You give up work or reduce your hours

(iii) He gives up work or reduces his hours

(iv) You pay for someone else to do the work. I acknowledge that you said that this was currently not possible but you might be able to increase your workload so that you can afford the help.

What I believe keeps people (usually the women) going in these situations is the hope that people will change their behaviour patterns. IME this is highly unlikely, and it is when the hope gets frustrated that martyrs get bitter. So I won't suggest that you should try to coerce or cajole your DH into changing his behaviour. Think you should find a solution for the issue that works around him as he is rather than how you would like him to be.

What i can't understand is those women who have several babies by a completely feckless bully of a husband/partner, and then having split up, can't wait to get another partner. Talk about out of the frying pan ...

I don't have the answers, just the questions - if I was any good at relationships I'd be in one. Well I am in one but not a cohabiting type setup. It's sad that things can change subtly, probably by barely perceptible increments, until one day you realise you're stuck with something unsatisfactory, like evenhope.

I know nothing is ever as straightforward as the opening post implies, but I think there's been a glut of those sort of threads lately and it puzzled me why anyone would put up with it for any length of time.

They can make new year resolutions to effect change. It's a good time to sit down at a PC and look at how many hours do I spend on child care, how many on cleaning and cooking, gardening, DIY and work and how many does my partner and what is fair and what can be changed and what outsourced.

xenia, I take it you are aware just how impossible and ridiculous your solutions are where you talk about hiring cleaners, nannies and diy people